Do we have a double standard here?!

Yet ANOTHER Mod request to stay on topic.

Tho it may have been prompted by a thread about "Auburns new dog" THIS thread is NOT intended to be about Auburn...I really need folks to understand that.

There is a discussion going on here that is productive and it need NOT be about any one person. Please...please respect the topic...respect the spirit of this post and what it was set up to discuss and don't make it something...it is not.

Thanks.

No, disagreeing with someone is not attacking, but there are times when NOT voicing your opinion is the better option. Just because you have the right to voice your view, does not mean you should.

Silence is not always condoning an action. Honestly is not always the best policy. Nothing is black and white, there is a whole lot of grey out there and it seeps into everything.

And people who are going through a rough patch, IMO deserve a little bit more compassion then normal. Stress and grief can cause people to make poor choices, why add to the stress? What I am reading here is that every one of us should have went "Oh wait, no, it's not right I tell you, ***  should not have done it, why should I care that *** is feeling poorly right now? What does human suffering matter, only the cause matters!'? I am sorry, I refuse to do it. I refuse to make a fellow human suffer more because she made a choice I do not agree with. I am not that arrogant.

ottoluv

No one is saying to attack someone, just be honest and speak up when something is NOT right. There seems to be a prevalent belief that if you don't agree with someone you are attacking them, or if they went through something rough they somehow don't deserve to be questioned which is just nonsense. You don't have to be perfect to point out a fault in someone elses behavior either. I'd much rather a honest friend who will tell me the truth and object when I'm doing something inappropriate then a superficial friend who just doesn't want to rock the boat. Feel resentful all you want, but in the end failing to stand up for what you believe because it is easier to do so is just as bad as condoning it IMO. Would you call the cops if someone beat a child and you saw it? Or would you not get involved? Would that be the same as condoning it? What if a neighbor's dog was in poor health and they did nothing, would you report it, even if they just lost a child? Or is it ok to do something wrong if you are hurting? These are obviously more serious examples, but the principle remains the same. Someone who you know and has gone through a lot deserves to be handled softly, but they still need to be told they are wrong when they are. I guess it depends on how you feel about puppy mills, if you don't think they are that bad then............say nothing.

Yes, I would speak up in those circumstances.  I don't think the principle is the same.  In those cases, someone/something is being directly injured if no one speaks up.  What happens if we all get on a poster's case?  They bring their dog back?

Some people really didn't know any better.  They go to the kennel and meet both parents, they see it's clean and the dogs are healthy and treated well.  They don't know what red flags to even be looking for.

I don't say anything in such threads as people introducing their dogs because I don't think there is anything to gain from making a point in that particular thread.  I don't say anything nice either b/c I do NOT condone it.  Heck, I rarely even read threads like that (I don't often visit the welcome forum).  I have stood up for what I believe in regarding puppy mills and breeders in EVERY single thread on the topic since I've been here and have a web site solely devoted to educating people about appropriate places to get dogs.  I don't have time to read every newbie welcome post or "look at my dog!" thread and sift through whether or not people have a clue.

I think at times we do have a double standard. I have seen a person that has been on the forum for a long time get flamed but its mostly the new person that gets attacked.

I edited the rest of my reply out.

.

ottoluv

Again, I think you are missing the point. No one wants anyone to feel pain, or bring a pet back. The point is that by education you can prevent others from doing the same thing, or potentially that person doing it again. You can both say congrats and disapprove of the process. If someone gets pregnant at 14 while drunk, you still love the baby, but that girl needs to know that her behavior was wrong. No one also is saying that there should be three pages of OMG I can't believe you would buy from a puppy mill. I love when people say it's not black and white and then accuse someone else in a "black and white" way. There is definately a middle ground here, and it should include disapproval of buying a puppy mills in addition to being supportive of a friend who has been through a lot.

Great analogy, and maybe the best post on the subject yet.  It speaks to the natural desire to be kind to someone who is having a hard time, but also to the necessity of upholding one's principles and educating people that it is not ok to soothe themselves by perpetuating an industry that causes so much pain to innocents.  My guess is that if people know better, they often do better, but they cannot know better unless someone tells them about these things. 

spiritdogs

Great analogy

It's a horrible analogy. ottoluv is talking about a 14-year-old child who was under the influence of alcohol! Not an adult who makes a decision of sound mind. And while you might feel obligated to rush in and voice your disapproval to this young girl who finds herself in the scariest position she's ever been in in her life, many, including myself, would NOT! She KNOWS the position she's in and it's not up to me to tell her how wrong I think her actions were after the fact.

spiritdogs

but also to the necessity of [...] educating people that it is not ok to soothe themselves by...

Who are you (or anyone) to educate people according to your own morals, though? This is a question of right and wrong, which is something each person decides for themselves. Nobody has the right to play the moral compass for the world. Nobody has an obligation to "educate people", especially by offering unsolicited advice and disapproval, after the fact. That's not education, that's harassment. People who take on that position tell themselves they are obligated to right the wrongs of the world, but it's just hogwash.

It's the same as the person who goes around to gay functions telling them they're living in sin or going to hell; or those who go to abortion clinics to try to save the "babies", telling the women what they're doing is wrong. Not one of us has the obligation to force our morals on people under the guise of "educating them"...

If the gay person asks, if the pregnant woman asks if she should get an abortion, THEN I have the right and obligation to tell them what I think. But anything else is just proselytizing.

And who are you (or anyone) to dictate HOW someone soothes themselves???  

FourIsCompany

Who are you (or anyone) to educate people according to your own morals, though

Is that not exactly the basis of every single training thread on this forum?  When you post to a training thread with advice on how to achieve some goal with a dog, or even on a discussion of dog philosophy, are you not attempting to educate people (or peoples) and bring them around to the way of training that you believe, morally, to the be best way to raise a dog?

ottoluv

There is definately a middle ground here, and it should include disapproval of buying a puppy mills in addition to being supportive of a friend who has been through a lot.

Well, I am in agreement with you here, but I just don't think it has to happen in the same thread.  I'm trying to speak in a general sense since we're not just talking about one person/one thread (at least I'm not).  If a newbie comes to the Intro forum to introduce themselves and their dog, I just don't see that as an appropriate place to bring up puppy mills and whatnot, not because I'm condoning the behavior, but b/c it's totally off topic.

Benedict

Is that not exactly the basis of every single training thread on this forum? 

When they ASK, yes, absolutely!  In the training forum, people are asking for advice. In MANY threads here people are asking for advice and to be educated.

FourIsCompany

Benedict

Is that not exactly the basis of every single training thread on this forum? 

 

When they ASK, yes, absolutely!  

I could not even begin to count the number of training threads that contain "education" that the OP did not ask for.  

Benedict

I could not even begin to count the number of training threads that contain "education" that the OP did not ask for.  

Really? Why would people post a thread in the training forum if they didn't want advice? Can you link to one so I can see what you mean?

http://community.dog.com/forums/t/70783.aspx 

This thread, for one, in which the first line of your own first post begins like this (truncated because rehashing the topic of that thread is not the point here):

FourIsCompany

I'm pretty sure you don't want my opinion, and I'm pretty sure it won't be a popular one, but.......

That one was just on the first page of Behaviour General Chat, and it gave me a good example of what I mean.  If you were pretty sure she didn't want your opinion, why post at all?  We ALL do this, jump into threads with our opinion, or to say our piece, regardless of what the OP might actually want to hear.  I'm guilty of it myself.  Deciding it is OK in one place, time or thread but not in another is merely situational ethics. 

She ASKED for people's advice. If you ask on an open forum for people's opinions, chances are you're going to hear opinions that you don't agree with. But the difference is that she ASKED. That's been my whole point here. If someone asks, then yes, I have a right and obligation to say my piece.

If someone is looking for a puppy and they post a "breeder" they're thinking of and ASK what we think of it, then yeah! Everyone has the right and may even feel obligated to share their knowledge and "educate" the person asking.

So as not to break my own warning and make this about one specific thread, I won't continue here.  Suffice it to say, I don't agree with you.  If you want to continue this via PM, or would like more examples of where this has happened, let me know.