Is Tail Docking Dog Torture?

Yeah but a lot of the reasons against it are equally irrelevant, absurd, or not at all based on fact.

it's amputation. It's surgery. That's THE only reason I've ever heard against these procedures. And frankly why would one need any other reason to think long and hard about why these things are done to puppies? "tradition" isn't good enough; people traditionally fought dogs, baited bulls, and burned people at the stake. And I don't think leaving it up to the dog owner's personal choice is relevant in this case. What color of dog collar and what food to feed are appropriate things to leave to individual choice; what body parts one can cut off is I think the realm of the law and animal abuse statutes. We can now argue about spay/neuter surgery, which is another iffy area; people try to prove individual dogs benefit from these surgeries, and while bitches may benefit from spaying it's a bit harder to prove dogs benefit from neutering. There is an overall "dogs in general" benefit from spay/neuter. Hard to come up with anything about how any dog, or dogs in general, benefit from having their ears surgically altered.

mudpuppy

They used to dock/crop dobermans to make them look more "fierce" which is also not relevant to today's doberman.

Not true.  "Looking more fierce" is part of the reason I had my own Doberman's ears done... Having a dog with a personal protection background is part of why I chose her breed.  Her appearance is something of a deterrent to potential assailants.  It's happened many, many times.... most notably when we unknowingly walked into a gang fight where her appearance kept people at bay, with one shrieking "get that thing away from me" and recoiling as he tried to escape her potential "strike zone".

Look, I appreciate the concerns and genuine upset over dogs being altered and put through potential pain for the benefit of their human owners.  We have seen dogs mutilated by ignorant/uncaring owners (some of us first-hand encounters), which is what we ALL want to stop.  What is done under a veterinarian's skilled care is NOT the same as torture.  I think there's more discomfort felt by the people who imagine what happens during a crop/dock, than what the dogs feel.

mudpuppy

Yeah but a lot of the reasons against it are equally irrelevant, absurd, or not at all based on fact.

it's amputation. It's surgery. That's THE only reason I've ever heard against these procedures.

Then how is this reason any more relevant?  Dogs have surgeries every day.....

miranadobe

I think there's more discomfort felt by the people who imagine what happens during a crop/dock, than what the dogs feel.

I really couldn't say what the sensation is like with docking, but I just cannot say the same for cropping.  As I stated in an earlier post, I know first-hand what it's like to have ears cosmetically altered, having had it done myself.  It was PAINFUL, and that was with pain medications that dogs don't get.  ALso, I remember not too long ago I clipped Zoe's leash to her collar, and she loudly yelped out, over and over like she was being tortured.  I had no idea what was wrong until I realized her ear was caught in the clasp of the leash.  Now Zoe happens to be very expressive of her feelings, and while a lot of dogs are very pain tolerant, that doesn't mean they are not suffering.  There are obviously a lot of nerve endings in the ears of dogs and people, and I just cannot condone ear cropping for ANY reason.

jenns

miranadobe

I think there's more discomfort felt by the people who imagine what happens during a crop/dock, than what the dogs feel.

I really couldn't say what the sensation is like with docking, but I just cannot say the same for cropping.  As I stated in an earlier post, I know first-hand what it's like to have ears cosmetically altered, having had it done myself.  It was PAINFUL, and that was with pain medications that dogs don't get. 

Yeah, but you have to remember that docking/cropping is done at such an early age- before their nerves are even fully developed.

On example is my brother who had surgery as a baby...he's 11 years old now...do you think he remembers any of it at all? Or even healing? No way. But, he still has the scar.

 Tell me how will little boys be made? Lots of snails but where will all the puppy dog tails come from? Nobody is suggesting taking out any key ingredients that make little girls, you know sugar, spice and everything nice. I think its only fair that the government steps in and bans and regulates something so that there's an equality of the sexes.

jenns

I know first-hand what it's like to have ears cosmetically altered, having had it done myself.  

It's ok that people do not want to crop ears- I understand how that can upset people.  But I will not condone a government telling me which dog breeds I can own, nor what my vet and I choose is right for my dog, when such laws are based on some idividuals' emotional reactions. 

miranadobe

You had it done when you were 12 weeks old? 

Umm..a 12 week old dog is equivalent to around a 6 year old human,, not 12 weeks.  And no I didn't have the procedure when I was 6 but many kids do and it HURTS.  And when it is done it is done to rectify a congenital deformity that results in psychological trauma, not because their parents think that their kids ears should be a shape that is more pleasing to their individual tastes.

miranadobe

But, really, comparing a human ear to a dog ear isn't equivalent. 

What about the physiology of a dogs ears makes them less apt to feel pain then a human's?  I already provided an example that demonstrated that dogs feel pain in their ears.  I'm not sure what else it takes to convince people that dogs feel pain.

miranadobe

But I will not condone a government telling me which dog breeds I can own, nor what my vet and I choose is right for my dog, when such laws are based on some idividuals' emotional reactions. 

Lots of laws are based on emotional reactions - dog fighting, child abuse, rape etc etc...  Our emotions and empathy for others give us ethics, from which many laws are created to help those that can't help themselves.

BlackLabbie

Yeah, but you have to remember that docking/cropping is done at such an early age- before their nerves are even fully developed.

On example is my brother who had surgery as a baby...he's 11 years old now...do you think he remembers any of it at all? Or even healing? No way. But, he still has the scar.

Dogs are cropped at an aged that is older to what is the equivalent of a human baby.  Dogs hit puberty at around 6-8 months which is equivalent to a 13 year old human child.  A dog at 3 -4 months old is at the same developmental stage of a 6-8 year old human.  Remember they develop must faster than humans do.  What takes a human around 18 years to hit adulthood takes a dog from 1-2 years depending on the breed.

jenns

miranadobe

But, really, comparing a human ear to a dog ear isn't equivalent. 

What about the physiology of a dogs ears makes them less apt to feel pain then a human's?  I already provided an example that demonstrated that dogs feel pain in their ears.  I'm not sure what else it takes to convince people that dogs feel pain.

Really, we have ALL mentioned the pain that dogs can feel in their ears, so I am not disputing that (I don't see anyone else doing it, either.)  My comment was saying you cannot call a dog ear equivalent to a human ear.  Why is it ok to pierce a baby's ears, then, since they have no choice in it, either?  But I will repeat - why are we comparing human physiology to dog??  I do not consider my dog a "fur baby" and find it a MAJOR disservice to dogs to view them through the context of the HUMAN experience as opposed to DOG.

jenns

Our emotions and empathy for others give us ethics, from which many laws are created to help those that can't help themselves.

miranadobe

Really, we have ALL mentioned the pain that dogs can feel in their ears, so I am not disputing that (I don't see anyone else doing it, either.)  My comment was saying you cannot call a dog ear equivalent to a human ear. 

You're saying you are not disputing that dog's feel pain in their ears, so what point are you trying to make by stating a  dog's ear is not equilavent to a humans ear? They either feel pain or they don't.

miranadobe

  A surgical procedure that has not shown any evidence of "torture" (even by the anti-cropping folks) does not require a law to ban it.

Well if it isn't to be made illegal, than pressure should be put on the AKC and breed clubs to remove the requirement for ear cropping from their standards.

jenns

Well if it isn't to be made illegal, than pressure should be put on the AKC and breed clubs to remove the requirement for ear cropping from their standards.

If that process had not already been started we wouldn't be having this conversation.  

Benedict

jenns

Well if it isn't to be made illegal, than pressure should be put on the AKC and breed clubs to remove the requirement for ear cropping from their standards.

 

If that process had not already been started we wouldn't be having this conversation.  

 Well then, they need to listen.  And more breeders and people in the breed clubs need to speak out against it.

 I've stayed out of this post since it is a never-ending disagreement, but I can't anymore.

My breed is the Miniature Pinscher. They are a cropped and docked breed. And I want them to stay that way. Why? Because of several reasons, all of which have been covered by other posters in this thread, but mostly because I am a law- abiding citizen who takes care of my animals. My girls are well taken care of - heck - they are spoiled rotten by any standard. I am tired of being told that what I do to my animals is torture. I don't agree with a lot of other peoples policies and behaviors, but they have the right to do them. I am not going to interfere with their rights because I don't like their actions. That is what living in America is all about. I also don't care that other countries have banned cropping and docking, because again, this is America - not England, not Australia etc. They have the right to make their choices, we have the right to make ours. What isn't right is the 'ideas' of those who think this is torture interfering with my rights. And don't go throwing up the animal's rights in my face either to not be 'mutilated'. Those who cut their dogs ears with razor blades or scissors at home without anesthesia or pain medicine is mutilation. Having a vet perform the surgery is no different than having surgery to spay/neuter. My one girl had so much trouble recovering from her spay surgery - it took 2 months for the incision site to heal completely due to a reaction to the sutures. The one that had her ears cropped never batted an eye and she healed in a heart beat. Which of those 2 surgeries do you thing caused more pain?

I make sure that any procedure that is done, is done by a vet with all the care that is needed to make it as painless as possible. Is there going to be pain? Yes. Heck, there is pain just by stepping on a rock in the yard. Life has pain in it. If we stop doing certain things because it causes pain, we would all quit living and walk around in plastic bubbles - human and animals alike. Am I being sarcastic? Yes. Why? I'm tired of having my rights taken away from me. Those of us on this website are representative of the responsible pet owners out there. We are not the problem when it comes to dogs being starved, abandoned, beaten, or bred until they can't produce anymore. There are laws out there to punish those who do such horrible things. Passing more laws to stop the abuse just makes it harder for us to enjoy our dogs company. Many people in this country are already in fear of having their dogs seized from them when they aren't doing anything wrong.

We are being bombarded from all sides with new laws with restrictions on what we can do with our pets, how we house them, how much exercise they get - the list is unending. When we start allowing the government to dictate one aspect of pet ownership, everyone's pet ownership rights are at stake because they aren't going to stop at just one aspect that they disagree with. We all like different aspects of different breeds that require different tools. Even if we don't like the different breed requirements, we must stand together to maintain our own breeds requirements because if we don't - we all loose.

 And asking the members of the breed clubs that have docking/cropping in their standard to change them isn't going to happen. Why? Because, I for one, am not going to let them check me off the list and then go on to someone else. I'm not going to be responsible for someone else losing their rights to enjoy their dogs the way they see fit.

So for what reasons, other than cosmetics, do you crop and dock your min pins?