How Many Ways Can You Say "Puppy Mill"????

I hate when sites use the term hybrid, a mutt does not equal 'hybrid'.

Edited to add: Found one *LINK REMOVED*

To me a puppy miller is someone who keeps their dogs in cages 24/7 and breeds non stop from thier stock for a sake of making money. The only way they can sell thier pups is by exploiting non-standard colours, mixed breeds, and saying all their puppies are 'perfect family pets'.

Liesje

German Shepherd puppy mills:

removed link to specific kennels

OK now I am confused.  What is it about the first link that you posted that that "sends up the puppy mill red flag"?  I recall from the "ethical breeders" thread that according to many on here an "ethical breeder" does certain things such as;

Shows their dogs in competition----- According to the site that you posted *removed name of specific kennel* kennels actively shows their dogs including "Sieger Shows"

Perform health checks on their dogs before breeding---- According to the site you posted " All of our dogs are either German "a" stamped or have OFA hip certification. This would be true in the entire family tree, ( generations ) as far back as x-rays and certifications existed."

Offer to take back any dog that can no longer be taken care of by the new owners----- According to the site site you posted *specific name removed* kennels does just that.

Breeds for the purpose of "improving the breed"-----  According to the site you posted *specific name removed* kennels is very concerned about "improving the breed" and are concentrating on dogs that are considered "working lines" instead of "show lines".

Are not in it for a "quick buck"----  If they were in it for a "quick buck" I doubt their starting price for a "pet quality" dog would START at $2000 and from there their prices go upwards to $7500.

So if this breeder is doing all of this just why do you label them as a "puppy mill".  Are all "professional breeders" puppy mills?

In this day and age of law suits shouldn't you be concerned about going on a "dog forum" and claiming a breeder is a "puppy mill" without listing any reasons to support your claim?  Could that be construed as "libel"?

I have no idea if this breeder is a good breeder or not but from what is presented on their site it hardly seems like they are what most people would think of when they hear the term puppy mill.

Mark

Based on my communications with them and the local GSD rescue, people who have been to their property, own their dogs, work at their kennel, and the vets they have used.  Anyone can put anything on their web site, you see what they want you to see....that is why when purchasing a dog you need to MEET the dogs, the breeders, go to shows and meet people who have decades of experience with the breed before choosing a puppy off a web site.

If you want specifics I can send them via PM.  I don't think this thread was intended to get into specifics about each breeder and I don't see the point in slandering people publicly, only to point out ones that should be avoided.  If you have experience with this breeder I'd like to hear about it.

PS.  Their dogs are not working lines, they are German show lines.  That's a matter of fact, not subjective so I have no problem stating it here.   Not a single dog on their web site is from working lines, at least not within 3-4 gens of the pedigree.  They breeding heavy on Ursus and Uran, those are show line dogs.  SchH titles do not a working dog make, that is a character test for the breed and I would expect show lines to be titled as well.  I don't have a problem with show lines or working lines (I have a working line and I'm getting a show line puppy), but the dogs are what they are - they are west German show dogs, lovely ones at that.

Marklf

I have no idea if this breeder is a good breeder or not but from what is presented on their site it hardly seems like they are what most people would think of when they hear the term puppy mill.

That's the point.  People only see what they want to see and what the breeder wants them to see.  What is presented on someone's site should never be the deciding factor for someone. 

Ok folks,

 If you've had direct contact with someone it's one thing but making a list of people you see online here really isn't appropriate without fully knowing. it can be considered slander/libel.

 If you'd like to discuss issues fine, do not name particular kennels/people

Liesje

Based on my communications with them and the local GSD rescue, people who have been to their property, own their dogs, work at their kennel, and the vets they have used.  Anyone can put anything on their web site, you see what they want you to see....that is why when purchasing a dog you need to MEET the dogs, the breeders, go to shows and meet people who have decades of experience with the breed before choosing a puppy off a web site.

The OP of this thread asked about "ads" that sent up the "puppy mill red flag".  You listed this web site as an example of that.  Now you are saying that it not the "ad" that sent up the "puppy mill red flag" but rather your things that you have heard about them and some vague communications that you have had with them? 

Liesje

If you want specifics I can send them via PM.  I don't think this thread was intended to get into specifics about each breeder and I don't see the point in slandering people publicly, only to point out ones that should be avoided.  If you have experience with this breeder I'd like to hear about it.

Actually the word you are looking for is "libel" slander is done orally libel is when you write it.  In the dog world the term "puppy mill" is quite damaging to the name and reputation of a breeder.  You seemed to have no problem "publicly" labeling this breeder as a "puppy mill" but now you want to give the reasons for that label via PM?  That hardly seems "ethical".  And no I have had no dealings with this breeder in fact I never heard of them until you listed them as a "puppy mill".

Liesje

PS.  Their dogs are not working lines, they are German show lines.  That's a matter of fact, not subjective so I have no problem stating it here.   Not a single dog on their web site is from working lines, at least not within 3-4 gens of the pedigree.  They breeding heavy on Ursus and Uran, those are show line dogs.  SchH titles do not a working dog make, that is a character test for the breed and I would expect show lines to be titled as well.  I

Schutzhund was originally intended to test the "working" abilities of the GSD.  It is my understanding that in Germany titles in schutzhund are required for all GSDs that are to bred.  This is to prevent what has happened to the breed in the US.  Here the GSD is becoming divided into "show lines" and "working lines" but according to all that I have read the Germans require all their GSDs to be "working" lines first and foremost.  Now I will agree that performing in Schutzhund does not mean that a GSD is a "working" dog but it is supposed to test the suitability of the individual dog for "protection" work.  Unfortunately too often now it is just seen as a "sport" and that IMHO has devalued it.  If their dogs are doing as well in schutzhund as their site portrays then their "lines" would appear to qualify as "working lines".

I will say again that I do not have any experience with this breeder but I am still confused as to what it is that is on their "ad" that should be looked at as a "puppy mill red flag".

Mark

I do not want to take this thread any farther off track so I will only say that IMHO all "schutzhund" is "show" and that it is no longer filling it original purpose.  Now to bring this back on track you still have not addressed my question as to why this kennel's "ad" sets off "puppy mill red flags"?  If you are going to publicly label this kennel's ad as a "red flag" shouldn't you at least inform us as to what those "red flags" are.

Mark

Oh and by the way the word "schutzhund" means protection dog in German so if you are getting your advice from those that "don't put much weight" in the "protection" aspect of these tests then IMHO you are getting advice from those that are making Schutzhund worthless.

Mark

Moderator Speaking 

the ADMIN of this site requested that specific kennels not be referred to barring personal experience. Being that this is off topic please take it private or to another thread in the appropriate area of the forum.

Mark, I sent you a PM.  On the other GSD sites I belong to, specific information is required to be shared via PM so I'll assume the same is true here.