terrible dog attack

    • Puppy

    Chuffy

    If the dog was hidden away so the owner could avoid the license fee and then escapes, the law would change nothing. 

    Actually the law would change several things.  As it stands right now those that have aggressive pit bull do not have to hide their dogs they can and do flaunt them.  Many seem to take delight in showing off just how "bad" their dog is.  As they strut down the street with these aggressive dogs their neighbors are forced to stay clear of them.  As you and other have brought up these owners would be forced to hide their dogs if these laws were enacted.  That alone would make their neighbors more comfortable as they walk down the street.  The next thing these laws would do is empower AC to keep the dogs if the escaped.  As it is right now AC must return your dog if it escapes and is picked up by them.

    Chuffy
    Of course they do!  Why do you think dog pounds EXIST!  The problem is not that there are no laws in place, it is that they are not being enforced.  

    While dog pounds do exist to house strays until they can be either returned to their owners, adopted out or PTS they are not there to protect the breed.  There are no laws in place to protect the breed!  It is perfectly legal to intentionally breed dogs that are by design human aggressive.  This law would address that.

    Chuffy

    Yes, and then the same thing will happen... ANOTHER breed will be chosen, or even created and thus the problem will NEVER go away.  So it's not a case of ploughing money into it, seeing an effect and then maintaining the status quo.... it would be a constant cycle, up until the point where some bright spark says, "hey, lets make a law addressing dangerous individuals, not dangerous breeds!  then we wouldn't have to keep redoing this law for all the different breeds!  what's that you say?  we already GOT some laws like that?  Well why didn't you SAY!?!"

    Like it or not BSLs are the reality of the day.  Our choices are to deny there is a problem with the breed and complain in vain about the BSL or to try and influence them so that those that truly love this breed can continue owning them.  Well the deny and then complain approach has not been working too well so I suggest that we change our approach and try to influence the laws so that not only will the pit lovers be able to keep their dogs but there will also be some protections in place for the breed itself.  No approach is perfect!  There is alway some that will find away around any solution that is suggested so waiting for a "perfect" solution is a waste of time and will have an adverse effect on both the pit lovers and on the breed itself.

    Mark

    • Gold Top Dog
    Marklf
    Like it or not BSLs are the reality of the day.  Our choices are to deny there is a problem with the breed and complain in vain about the BSL or to try and influence them so that those that truly love this breed can continue owning them. 

    Marklf

    Chuffy

    If the dog was hidden away so the owner could avoid the license fee and then escapes, the law would change nothing. 

    Actually the law would change several things.  As it stands right now those that have aggressive pit bull do not have to hide their dogs they can and do flaunt them.  Many seem to take delight in showing off just how "bad" their dog is.  As they strut down the street with these aggressive dogs their neighbors are forced to stay clear of them.  As you and other have brought up these owners would be forced to hide their dogs if these laws were enacted.  That alone would make their neighbors more comfortable as they walk down the street.  The next thing these laws would do is empower AC to keep the dogs if the escaped.  As it is right now AC must return your dog if it escapes and is picked up by them.

     

    I do agree with you that AC must be empowered to keep dogs if the dogs are believed to be dangerous.  However, where we part company is that you believe this should be based on breed and I do not.  Depending on which area you live in, AC may already have that power without additional legislation - but it means ordinary folk would have to log a complaint so that they have it on record that the dog is dangerous.

    Marklf

    Chuffy
    Of course they do!  Why do you think dog pounds EXIST!  The problem is not that there are no laws in place, it is that they are not being enforced.  

    While dog pounds do exist to house strays until they can be either returned to their owners, adopted out or PTS they are not there to protect the breed. 

     

    I believe you are misinformed.  True, pounds are not their to protect "the breed" - or any dog.  They are there to reduce the risk/number of dog bites to the general public.

    Marklf
    Like it or not BSLs are the reality of the day.  Our choices are to deny there is a problem with the breed and complain in vain about the BSL or to try and influence them so that those that truly love this breed can continue owning them. 

    Here again we part company.  I do not deny there is a "problem with the breed".  However, it is not a problem inherent within the breed.  It is more accurately described as a problem with certain people.  If more laws are to be passed, they should target the right people.  The kind of laws you are proposing would, for the most part target "normal" people, not the people who are the true problem.  The people who are breeding pits to be aggressive and raising them to be aggressive would carry on doing so, OUT OF SIGHT.  Or would target a new breed and do the same with them in the open.  *shrugs*  And round and round we go.....

    I have no more to say on this subject.  I am bored of it now!

    In closing, I really DO hope that gentleman is doing OK. 


    • Puppy

    Chuffy

    I believe you are misinformed.  True, pounds are not their to protect "the breed" - or any dog.  They are there to reduce the risk/number of dog bites to the general public.

    I think you misread me I agree that pounds are not there it protest the breed.

    Chuffy
    Here again we part company.  I do not deny there is a "problem with the breed".  However, it is not a problem inherent within the breed. 

    It really does not matter if the problem is "inherent" to the breed.  The general public percieves that that the problem is with the breed and they are demanding that their local governments take action to protect it from the breed!  So BSLs are how the cities cope with the issue.  It may not be the right way but it is what it is.  Best we can do is to try to influence those laws.

    Mark

    • Gold Top Dog

    Excellent post. I hope some other people besides me read it.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Great post

     Very sad stories and very true remarks.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

    I have read many of your posts and know how much you truly care for your breed of dog.  Hopefully your breed will never face the same level of irresponsible ownership and breeding that the pit bull has fallen to.  I know that breeders like you are constantly vigilant against allowing that to happen but on the outside chance that your breed was the next "bad dog" breed would you prefer that the laws restricted ownership of the breed such as what my proposal would do or an outright ban on the breed which is what is happening too often with pit bulls?

    Mark

    Mark IF my breed became the next Pit Bull I would opt for outright BANNING of the breed. If Breeders Like myself and other reputable people that I know can not keep this from happening then it would be far better that they were not availible to ANYONE.!!!

    You think a Pit is a nasty  fighter, you have seen NOTHING thill you see what an angry Ridgeback can do.  Recently there was a fight in my own Back Yard. I had 2 girls in season  and we are fanatical about never leaving a girl alone in the yard.  I had just put the girls back in the house and let Kota a 9 year old and Nemo a then 6 month old out to play.  I had walked away from the back door in the dog room and barely gotten 20 feet or so down the hallway when The dog room erupted in  raucous and fight mode barking. running back to the dog room I was beyond puzzled everyone was in the correct crate so what was up with the barking??  Picking up a spray bottle the crated dogs quieted instantly.  But the Battle Roars continued outside. Moving quickly to the back door with 15 month old ( 95 pound) Zion on my heels , My daughter  and 8 year old grandson close behind we ran outside. There in the back yard were Kota about 80 pounds soaking wet and Brinble Blue Pit Bull engaged in total combat. This was not a drill, close by was the puppy trying to pack with Kota. The Grandson locked arms around Nemo and sat down to prevent him from being involved, My daughter grabbed Zion who desperately wanted to back up his best buddy. I grabbed a broom and a pooper scooper and began to wail on the strange dog  hoping to drive him back. He had his mouth over Kota's head , blood was everywhere.  After many blows the dogs seperated, and yes Kota was whacked as well.  Getting in between the dogs , I kept pushing the pit out the now opened gate as my daughter grabbed Kota.  I was able to drive him out of the gate then ran to the house.

    Kota was covered in blood. His scalp was severely lacerated from the fold just inside the ears.  Kota was rushed to the Vet by my daughter, this was the first time in over 35 years that I have not brought a dog home as soon as a surgery was finished.  He had 48 exterior stitches and for every exterior my vet told me there were 2-3 interior ! That is a ton of damage.

    So Why would I say Ban My Breed should it become the next Pit Bull ???  Because my 9 year old dog who weighed 9 pounds less than the Pit he fought did far more damage than he received.  The Pit was thrown out at the dump box at our Kill Shelter.  The vet happened to be there for an emergency whelping and was able to euthanize the Pit before it finished bleeding out. Due to the extra skin a Ridgeback has Kota was able to manuvere in such a way that he had ripped open the Pit's throat, He also Broke it's breast bone, right clavical, and one front leg in 2 places. Shattering the bones so badly even it that had been the only wound the dog would have struggled to survive.  This was a dog that had lived in my neighborhood. The owners denied it,  They were so afraid of the legal repercussions they made no effort to help the dog,  according to the shelter doctor  the dog was beyond help but dumping him was beyond cruel.  When I arrived at the family "home" the father was washing the dog's blood off the front porch.  They denied ever having had the dog even though I had seen their son with him many times walking him on a tow chain lead.

    Kota a sweet and gentle dog... was able to kill , for all intent and purpose a 3 year old Pit Bull that the young owner had bragged about fighting and winning with over a dozen times ,  this dog  had been used in the Hawg Dawg Rodeos .  Should I feel thrilled that Kota has now been "blooded"?   Or am I right to feel sick over the phone calls that have come in since asking me to cross my dogs male or female with curs and pits by "friends " of the young owner ???   Now I will have to lock my gates from the inside and make sure under no circumstances are my dogs left outside without supervision, the 6+ foot wooden fence is Not enough...not if some idiot wants to get to my dogs.  The law was unable to prove anything since the home was being rented to this family by a cousin. No lease and no paper trail to prove they had ever had the Pit. Neighbors were kinda of sort of sure that a Pit had lived there, but were not willing to cross the family.  No vet records exisited to show this dog had ever been cared for let alone owned. The exam post mortem showed a very muscled dog with extensive scaring.  Yes this was yet another dog fed gunpowder , another wasted soul.

    IF my breed becomes the next BIG thang , I would rather they were banned and unavailable to the morons , who by the way are not just Thugs you have your Rednecks too !  Ridgebacks are already  being touted as the next Superior Hawg Dawgs... other dogs require the Kevlar vest and huge leather collars to face the enourmous angry boars. Ridgebacks, unencomberd dance in and out true to their genetic memory , tagging and scoring on the Boar , leaving slashing wounds ...it's a game to them.   As an Ethical and Passionate Breeder I will turn in my best friend should I find out that person was using a Ridgeback to fight hogs, dogs or cross breed.  I will see your program destroyed and will do what I can to see you face criminal charges and That is IF you had been a friend !! We will not discuss what I would see done if I didn't like you !  MY breed is incredibly intelligent, loving and sincere. Abused they will make the pit look like a pussycat. PpSI  The Ridgeback is second ONLY to the Hyena. Add to that scary fact , a Ridgeback does not pause in it's bite, what people used to think of as the Locking Bite,  RRs slash , crunch and tear. Breaking a bone is normal. Mine regularly pulverize Venison Bone which is hard enough to crack most dog's teeth.

    I would rather they remain Off limits than see them become the next Pit Bull.    To assure they do not, breeders like ourselves go way above and beyond. Our breeding programs stress temperament first over ring conformation. We also socialize to the MAX. My dogs are not bred without health clearances,  championships and more importantly CGCS and ATTS certs.  My dogs from MY line regularly achive their International Therapy Dog certs. or the Delta Dog certificate.    For me I can equate it with the old time thinking... I would rather a daughter became a Nun than a Hooker.   I would rather see my breed GONE than see it go the way of the Dangerous Dog .

    And one final comment the "Dreaded Dachschund " comment does NOT trivialize the pit bull issue.... ANY Dog on Human Aggression is UNACCEPTABLE . The minute YOU say well I can stomp the wienie dog so it is not a real Problem.... YOU ARE WRONG!!!

    Just because you may be able to better defend yourself as an adult does not mean the dachschund that attacks a child is less destructive or potentially lethal.   As a retired RN who worked the ER for longer than I would care to remember. I have seen babies , toddlers and young children torn up by the "smalldog " in the family.  The first time you as an adult think you are the only target for an antisocial canine YOU have become part of the problem. Rather than protecting someone who is either innocent or uneducated YOU are perpetuating the steriotype that only a BIG dog, a Pit Bull etc is a danger.... I have assisted in more surgeries and ER visits than I wan to remember because some adult felt String and tough so the snarky yappy little dog was not properly watched or trained.

    Bonita of Bwana

     

    • Puppy

    Bonita of Bwana
    Mark IF my breed became the next Pit Bull I would opt for outright BANNING of the breed.

    You have stated you reasons in a very articulate fashion and I respect your views.  I do wonder though, you say that you would prefer your breed be banned rather then for them to become the "next Pit Bull" so do you then support banning Pit Bulls?

     

    Bonita of Bwana

    And one final comment the "Dreaded Dachschund " comment does NOT trivialize the pit bull issue.... ANY Dog on Human Aggression is UNACCEPTABLE . The minute YOU say well I can stomp the wienie dog so it is not a real Problem.... YOU ARE WRONG!!!

    Please go back and read what I wrote.  I clearly stated that human aggression by ANY BREED is unacceptable!  I never stated that bites or attacks from the "wienie dog" is "not a real problem".  I pointed out the obvious physical differences between the two breeds. You described the force that you needed to use to get the pit bull of your dog.   Obviously a dachshund would not have been as difficult to remove!

     

    Bonita of Bwana
    Just because you may be able to better defend yourself as an adult does not mean the dachshund that attacks a child is less destructive or potentially lethal. 

    Any animal with teeth can do some damage especially to a child!  But of course a dachshund is not as destructive or potentially lethal as a pit bull!  A pit bull's mouth is larger, its jaws are stronger and they are more powerful.  Think about your dog that was attacked.  If that had been a dachshund instead of a pit bull would you dog have been as severely damaged?  That DOES NOT MEAN that it is OK for dachshunds to display human aggression!  Nor does it mean that a dachshund cannot cause injuries to a child or even to an adult!  As I stated if an animal has teeth it can do damage!

    Mark

     

     

     

    • Bronze

    Marklf

       Obviously a dachshund would not have been as difficult to remove!

     

    Just curious if you have ever tried to persuade an angry dachshund to let go of something it really wanted. I suspect if you had you would not make that comment, or are you going to say you can squish the weinie? I can tell you, from experience, that ANY angry dog is a force to be reckoned with, but doxie's are particularly tenacious when prey oriented, and unless you SEVERELY injure them attempting to 'squish' them will generally just make them come at you faster and harder and they are quick! And as far as them not doing as much damage to a child as a pitbull, IMO that's a lousy argument because dead is dead and either dog can make that happen. Moot point.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

    You have stated you reasons in a very articulate fashion and I respect your views.  I do wonder though, you say that you would prefer your breed be banned rather then for them to become the "next Pit Bull" so do you then support banning Pit Bulls?

    I am closer to being in favor than I have ever been before But that tends to happen when your space has been violated and some one you love hurt. My backyard which has always been a safe haven for Kids and Dogs is no longer as safe .... Locked gates and 6 foot fence did not keep this dog out.  Would I vote for it?  That is a toughie.  Folks in our area are not the best educated dog owners in the world.  But I recognize there are amazing Pit Owners and dogs.  I am just not lucky enough to see them locally.  Raising the kids and training my own dogs for Therapy work is the biggest part of my days.  I have tried for YEARS to get our city to pass and enforce Tags and Licenses.  But people do not taxes in amy form and they perceive Tags or Permits as encroaching on their "rights" ...

    Tragically The Pits I have met at dog shows are great, and when in Perry Georgia  a couple of months ago Kota earned his CGC , at the same time there were several Pits earning theirs.  We Respect and Admire owners and breeders who are actively working to improve the breed and it's image. Some one else wrote about teaching kids EARLY ... we have done Responsible dog owner day in the schools for years. I bring one or two RRS and a friend's Mastiff, Another friend's Irish Wolfhounds and Border Terriers, we give kids a chance to put their hands on and we talk about the breeds, what they were genetically engineered for. We stress training and feeding correctly.  We show them what well mannered dogs are capable of and we let them talk about their dogs. We explain you do not feed gunpowder to a dog, that making ANY dog mean is ignorant. Stupid people can make a dog mean , it takes brains and heart to make a dog  friendly and keep them that way. We also make sure before we leave that every child has said in their own way " Dogs are important,  they are not a fashion accessory and taking care of them is critical because they Love US"   

    That is all I have to say on this thread.   Since the posts for the most part are becoming simply repetitive.  And not a little argumentative.

    Bonita of Bwana

    • Gold Top Dog

    BSL doesn't solve the problem of dogs injuring people. It is a feel good pill, and easy "fix" that allows politicians to feel like they have done something useful.

    Malcolm Gladwell wrote a wonderful article on BSL and pits. Given that it is in the nature of a pitbull to be friendly to people, he writes:

    "A pit bull is dangerous to people, then, not to the extent that it expresses its essential pit bullness but to the extent that it deviates from it. A pit-bull ban is a generalization about a generalization about a trait that is not, in fact, general. That’s a category problem."

    (The category problem being that the problem is dogs that are aggressive to humans, not pitbulls. A small number of pitbulls fall into the former category. Legislation should target aggressive dogs, and back that paper with funds for enforcement. Simple? Yes. Easy? No. That solution requires thought and money, too things government policy makers tend to have in short supply.) 

    • Puppy

    Dog_ma

    BSL doesn't solve the problem of dogs injuring people. It is a feel good pill, and easy "fix" that allows politicians to feel like they have done something useful.

    Lets look at what has happened in the Omaha area.  Omaha is considering a ban on pit bull after several pit bull attacks in just the last week, including one in which a 15 month old toddler  was scalped and  three other people were injured in the same attack.  Across the river from Omaha it the town of Council Bluffs.  Three years ago Council Bluffs banned pit bulls.  The first year of the ban pit bull attacks fell more then 50% from 29 attacks in 2004 to just 12 in 2005!  In 2006 the number of attacks was cut in half again to just 6 attacks.  In 2007 the number of attacks was again reduced by more then 50% to just 2 attacks.  So far 2008 has produced NO attacks.  While I am NOT SUPPORTING BANNING any breed of dogs, it certainly will appear to many of the people in Omaha that their neighbors across the river have found a solution to the problem that they are having with pit bull attacks.  No matter how many writers that you quote that claim it is not in nature of a pit bull to be aggressive towards people the image of a 15 mouth old with her scalp riped off will have a far greater impact on the voters and the politicians then their "wonderful articles".  As I have stated if one truly loves this breed and wants to prevent outright bans on them then they need to offer alternatives that will protect the pit bull owners, the pit bull breed AND assure those that live in the community the issues associated with these dogs is being dealt with.

    Mark

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

      No matter how many writers that you quote that claim it is not in nature of a pit bull to be aggressive towards people the image of a 15 mouth old with her scalp riped off will have a far greater impact on the voters and the politicians then their "wonderful articles". 

    Mark

     

    Yes, it is always easy to play the emotion card. Harder to deal logically and intelligently with problems.

    As futile as it may be, I refuse to abandon reason and embrace the manipulation of emotion. 


    • Puppy

    Dog_ma

    Yes, it is always easy to play the emotion card. Harder to deal logically and intelligently with problems.

    As futile as it may be, I refuse to abandon reason and embrace the manipulation of emotion. 

    In the example that I posted, if the people of Omaha look at the issue logically and intelligently they certainly could conclude that the ban on Pit Bulls has worked very well for their neighbors so it would be logical to assume it would work for them also.  This is especially true if the people that support pit bulls do not provide an alternative to the ban that will not only meet the needs of pit bull owners but also meet the needs of the community to feel that something is being done about this breed that many consider to be dangerous.

    Mark

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

    In the example that I posted, if the people of Omaha look at the issue logically and intelligently they certainly could conclude that the ban on Pit Bulls has worked very well for their neighbors so it would be logical to assume it would work for them also.  This is especially true if the people that support pit bulls do not provide an alternative to the ban that will not only meet the needs of pit bull owners but also meet the needs of the community to feel that something is being done about this breed that many consider to be dangerous.

    Hhm, how long have their neighbors had the ban in place? Most cities/counties are finding BSL actually does more harm then good. So much so that the Dutch government lifted the ban after 15 years! So what proof have they that the ban is working? Is that by how many innocent pit bulls they have ripped out of homes and put to sleep, LOL?

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/06/09/international/i100455D22.DTL

    I would really like to hear thier reasoning behind the fact that is successful, do you have a link?

    There sure are more articles stating why they dont work then how they do work.

    http://www.kmbc.com/news/9698258/detail.html

    http://www.thedogpress.com/SideEffects/side_effects_leg_01.asp

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Gee, Council Bluffs has 80 or so pitbulls legally living there. With owners who are held to a standard. And yet they've not run amuck! Amazing.

    When you hold owners accountable, dog injuries drop! Council Bluffs is, imo, proof that a all out breed ban is ridiculous. The problem isn't pitbulls. It is reckless ownership.