AKC is Changing the Breeds in Groups !!! Yikes

I don't envy you and your breed what it may go through if it changes groups... I hope that it all works out for the best in the end.

I will add that I was a bit confused by your comment on how dachshunds and wolfhounds could be in the same group, it's cause they are judged according to their own standard.  Otherwise how would you ever get a BIS, with a mastiff and a toy poodle in the ring together.  I'm sure you know that, but it was just a bit confusing.

Good luck, I love the RR, beautiful dog. But, I can see, indeed how they are harder to classify than most!  Maybe non-sporting?

     Wow, that stinks :(  Can the RR parent club petition AKC to keep the breed out of the working group? I knwo that the Schipperke people fought to keep their breed out of the Toy group for fear it would increase popularity - what they did was increase the accepted weight of the breed and made it too large for AKC to accept into the group. But in actuality it's several pounds smaller than the revised Standard calls for  This is only going to increase the popularity of the breed for guardian purposes and the likliehood it may fall into the hands of reject owners. And it would be a shame if breeders started deviating from the Standard for the more heavily built working look. What an assanine way to rearrange the breed classifications! What in the world is AKC thinking???!!!

     Not to hijack the thread, but has anyone heard of AKC's new "Registry Reserach" program? This is a good one. As of April 08, in order to increase their dwindling single registrations, the AKC is now accepting dogs for registration that were ineligable before. If the dog traces back to AKC ancestors within the 3 generation pedigree, for $30, they will register it for you. This is something I found out from a very reliable source, and though I could find no mention of it on their website, I did e-mail to inquire. Their response is some line about how they are doing this for research purposes (BS) and send them a copy of the registration certificate & 3 gen pedigree and if the dog qualifies (i.e. if it has AKC ancestors in the pedigree) they will give you full registration. Just when you think they are not capable of stooping to new lows, the AKC proves us wrong yet again.

     I say UKC all the way, baby! They are my absolute favorite registry and conformation ring is usually not filled with overdone, ridiculous examples of the breed that don't know a rabbit from a stuffed toy.

P.S. ~ That Registry Research thingy ... the e-mail for it could possibly be AltReg@akc.org  ... but you didn't hear that from me    lol

UKC splits the sight/scenthounds. I actually kind of like that. I also love that the SPoodle is in the GUNDOG group.

The Nonsporting group could really be done away with IMO....the breeds there could find places in some existant group if you try hard enough. They also could expand the Toy Group to just COMPANION...which could include breeds of others sizes, would help with dissolving the NonSporting group.

ETA: I've always secretly thought the Dachs would be a better fit in the Terrier group...they seem very terrier-ish from their work to their temperaments, they even come in a wire coat!

I'd call the Dachshund a terrier for sure.  It was a semantic error that put it in with the hounds - "hund" just means dog in German, not hunting hound.

Those groups are all messed up anyway.  It's a silly thing to try to classify dogs by type or function in a competition where it's all about looks.  If it were about function the dogs could all do their thing, and then it would be easy to judge between them.

They should just take the standards and divide them by body type, coat type, and size.  Heck, they do that at the breed level with a few of the breeds anyway.

Gina I love your new siggy!
 

Hi , to try to answer a couple of thoughts at the same time... 

UKC is for us a Practice ring, we have fun playing in it but there is not enough dogs to ever really justify the events. Where a Grand Champion in UKC is possible by a certain amount of wins at any given show they may have only a couple or RRs at best. So for us, A National AKC BIS win is over HUGE amounts by comparison. It is possibly ego, but to me there is a big feeling of satisfaction to know exactly how many dogs have been beaten in competition.  A Number 1 AKC RR is going to have thousands of dogs, while the same Grand champion in UKC will normally, for our breed at least , have way under 200.

Next Non sporting is a group that may eventually vanish.  And on top of that Ironically when the RR came to the USA we borrowed the Dalmation standard to write our own which is one reason why most of our dogs are way bigger than standard

So  of course I have forgotten the exact point of Wolfhounds and Wiener dogs... Hounds hunt by very specific methods, Sight , scent and then you have the Earth dogs.... Oh yes Now I remember. Absolutely each dog is judged by it's own standard. Here is the issue,  A wolfhound as a hunter is a sight hound, they travel vast area with decent speed , the power behind them is pretty impressive. Then you have the Dachshund , they will go to ground, and under brush, equally strong hunter and instinct BUT waaaaaaaaaaaay different methods and abilities. The big dog is going to throw themselves in a specific pattern, they hunt in packs if others are there and they have an entirely different life span.  Little dog is ready to tackle vermin under ground, they are fearless when doing so.  The body movement is soooo different and the "kill" is up to the Hunter .

Looking at the Working Group thnere is not a fragile or pack animal in the group.  While they may make a few bonds it is not customary. They do not think for each other or anticipate the actions of prey in the same way. They are head on in your face confronters. They don't stalk and track in the same method.  The bodies of the Working group spread from the Guard type, lean and atheletic able to leap fence and race after the specified target to the Blockier in your face you aren't getting by me guys.  While RRs were devoted to the homestead and families that bred them , they were practically washouts at guarding the Diamond Mines.  It made little sense to them, attacking simply because there wasa command was not in thier make up.  charging a lion or wild boar was....

A ridgeback without a lion does not change his prey drive, and it can mean he will  happily veg on the couch with you ALL day watching old movies or sports.  The Working dog will tolerate this inactivity but not as a life style. They respond so well to organized thought and command. The Sporting dog like a retriever will fetch till the cows come home... but the RR will possibly get it the first time, the next time they tend to sigh and go after it slower by the third time they shrug and look at you Like "YOU obviously don't want the Dang thing so it can stay there !"  When Lure coursing a RR often cheats. They will watch the other dogs run and before you know it they have a plan , one heads it off , another drives it and the last cuts in and out harrassing it .... there is a reason for this and they do it without training.

Every group has a purpose and image.  While the GSD , Dobes and a couple others have escaped the beefing up that the majority of the working group seems prone to a blocky and bulky shape. Not the long lean shape of my beloved hound. Attitude is another difference while in our breed they must be aloof and protective they are not ever supposed to be aggressors.  Many times as any breed grows the input of outside influences adjust the appearance and eventually the standard. We do not want to see our breed become less lean or the tuck to vanish. Just as when we were finally accepted into coursing many lines became much more greyhoundy.  This is the reason the ONLY DQ in our breed is ridgeless, they do not want anyone crossing lines or mixing breeds simply to produce a really fast sort of RR looking dog.  While I resent the not allowing RRR to course, I accept it.

What distresses me most is the concept that as a breed we should have zero input and as of now this is how it seems to stand.   While you may think you are not being touched there is tallk of a Northern Group, ie Spitz type that would cover the little guy to the elegant Malamute! This actually makes a bit more sense as coat and climate will have a commonality that my breed would not share with the Working Group or Sporting Group But the Big dog folk may not like the concept, Elkhounds would then leave the Hound group for this one... side note elk actually meant moose in the original language , and since RRs will hunt moose we have something in common, yet because of coat they could be sidelined to a group that  pulls or guards not hunts....

It is complicated and while all of us are worried and working on BSL it would seem this is being slipped past our very noses.... I do not know ALL of the breeds affected, but you can be sure it is not being shook up for simply one....

Bonita of Bwana

A Hound by Nature

brookcove

They should just take the standards and divide them by body type, coat type, and size.  Heck, they do that at the breed level with a few of the breeds anyway.

I agree , we have long wondered about the 13 and 15 inch Beagles.... how do they determine who is who in a litter??  Since they are both from the same litters!

It seems at once both obvious and odd.  You would think you would be breeding for a size ,  yet in any litter every puppy can be registered based off of which size it most likely will become!  This is two rings that could be made one.

Bonita of Bwana

 I'd just like to say that I'd like to see my breed back in the Working group :-p  Move away from over angulated dogs.

Nobody takes into consideration the angulation of the GSD because they really DON'T herd anymore.  But put it in the working group where it will be recognized as a patrol/SAR dog?  Judges have to take that into consideration...there's no way a lot of the dogs could ascend steep snow covered slopes or rocky terrain with the angulation they've got.

And you can forget about running down a criminal
 

Xeph

 I'd just like to say that I'd like to see my breed back in the Working group :-p  Move away from over angulated dogs.

Nobody takes into consideration the angulation of the GSD because they really DON'T herd anymore.  But put it in the working group where it will be recognized as a patrol/SAR dog?  Judges have to take that into consideration...there's no way a lot of the dogs could ascend steep snow covered slopes or rocky terrain with the angulation they've got.

And you can forget about running down a criminal
 

Seconded.

This is slightly off topic but I think the UKC needs to split the gun dogs!  I was at the Premier this past weekend and it looked like 50 dogs in the group!  They need like a Setter/Pointer, Retriever/Spaniel split or something.

While RRs were devoted to the homestead and families that bred them , they were practically washouts at guarding the Diamond Mines.  It made little sense to them, attacking simply because there wasa command was not in thier make up.  charging a lion or wild boar was....

Welcome to the wonderful world of the AKC.  Gladly changing the actual history of a breed to suit politics and fancy.  Did you know that sheep prefer almond-shaped eye and a soft neophyte face (domed head, distinct stop) to a hard stare and shallower stop?  Did you know that a sheepdog has to have a white tip on its tail so the shepherd can see his dog in the dark, even though about half the sheepdog breeds don't even have a tail and the BC carries its tail under its body?  Not to mention the fact that where the BC was developed, you can't see the dog much less the tail, when you are working.

rwbeagles

ETA: I've always secretly thought the Dachs would be a better fit in the Terrier group...they seem very terrier-ish from their work to their temperaments, they even come in a wire coat!

Couldn't agree more, and many dachs people share that opinion.  Going to ground for the purpose of killing vermin - if that is not a terrier than I don't know what it is!  There is no other hound that is bred to do this, not to mention they have a very terrier-like personality.

I'd just like to say that I'd like to see my breed back in the Working group :-p  Move away from over angulated dogs.

Nobody takes into consideration the angulation of the GSD because they really DON'T herd anymore.

Awww, you're so cute!  You think that actual function matters in the ring! If it did, why on earth are Australian Border Collies, which no longer herd on a functional level, now completely dominating American Border Collies, which descend directly from working stock?

Xeph

 I'd just like to say that I'd like to see my breed back in the Working group :-p  Move away from over angulated dogs.

Nobody takes into consideration the angulation of the GSD because they really DON'T herd anymore.  But put it in the working group where it will be recognized as a patrol/SAR dog?  Judges have to take that into consideration...there's no way a lot of the dogs could ascend steep snow covered slopes or rocky terrain with the angulation they've got.

And you can forget about running down a criminal
 

It's funny you mentioned that.  I have always felt too that GSD should, and deserve to be in the Working group.  Rotties have a background very similar to that of the GSD, being of both herding and guardian ancestry, so technically they could be in the Herding, but they aren't.  Rotties were properly placed in the Working group, and so they should, but I feel that GSD should be moved back to Working.  When the Herding group was formed in the mid-eighties to separate the Working, GSD should have been left alone in this group.

Bonita-

Do you have a link or something?

Actually, I think basenjis would fit nicely in a Primitive Group, but otherwise, they don't fit nicely anywhere.