eaglerock814

·        It defines a “pet dealer” as anyone who “engages in the sale or offering for sale of animals for profit to the public and 
keeps on his or her premises more than four intact female dogs six months of age or older for the purpose of breeding.”

• A pet dealer also is defined as anyone who sells or offers to sell nine or more dogs or puppies a year. Humane Societies are excluded.  

     Well, this is why I support commercial breeders RIGHT to breed their dogs even if we do not agree with raising dogs for profit or for pets. And it seems my fears were correct all along. I have four intact females, soon to have two more kept back out of my current litter. And ten dogs total. Two litters per year, 6-7 pups average per litter. Hell, if I bred ONE SINGLE LITTER in a year, I would automatically be pigeonholed into the same classification as pet stores and brokers.

     In order to comply with the same regulations that a pet store/broker/commercial breeder with 100 dogs must follow, I need to be USDA and/or state licensed. My dogs will probably never set foot in the house again, you know once you are USDA that is a no-no. I do not think that with my city sized backyard I will be able to construct the type of and as many kennels as I will need to comply with the new regulations. I will have to sell dogs I've poured my soul into breeding. There goes the championed bitch who we were training for field trials. F*** the two bitch pups I have downstairs, the next generation that may never be. Screw OFA because with licensing fees updwards of $300 per dog I can't afford to sepnd that much for one dog's hip x-rays. So will likely be forced to discontinue my breeding program if this passes.

     It's literally going to be like erasing the past 5yrs of my life. 

     Am going to be speaking with my local senator Jeff Klein & just about any state assemblyman who'll listen. All the damned progressive NY democrats are pretty much like talking to brick walls tho.

     And I hope that some of the AKC show breeders who have the holier than thou attitude & label damn near ever breeder who doesn't show as a puppy mill get knocked off their high horse when similar legislation screw them from behind. If it can happen in NY - hell it can happen anywhere. We have literally almost no dog legislation here. Now we may be in for the mother of them all.

Postings like yours are what keeps me going in this fight.

Like many of us, your dogs represent your life's work...or at least your life's avocation.

We can do no less than to insist on our right to breed dogs because we own them. They are not little people. They are dogs, and they are our dogs. 

We also love them.

Just curious as to where you WOULD peg the number of dogs to be considered a dealer? 

I would use the definition of a dealer found in federal kennel laws.

Under federal law, a dealer is someone who sells dogs to pet stores, other dealers, auctions or for other forms of third-party sales.

A commercial kennel is harder to define. People who raise only one litter of puppies in a lifetime probably don't want to lose money on it.

Probably the best definition would be based on standard practices, to protect SERIOUS hobby breeders. If someone is serious about producing the best possible puppies in any breed, it takes rigorous selection to accomplish this goal. That means producing several litters a year, in many cases. That also is true if someone is trying to develop a unique "bloodline" of dogs within a breed.

In that regard, I think proposed Pennsylvania legislation has a good standard. A kennel is regulated more intensely as commercial if it sells 60 or more dogs or puppies a year. For some breeds of dogs, that would translate into eight litters a year. No one is making a living on producing eight litters of puppies, which keeps the definition in the hobbyist range. In terms of actual net profits, few breeders actually make $500 on a litter of puppies..and most lose their shirts. They do it because they love dogs.

The average dog hobbyist spends thousands of dollars a year in building kennels, maintaining kennels, buying dog food and supplies, obtaining veterinary care, traveling and competing in events, raising and evaluating puppies to determine their worthiness for competition or breeding, caring for elederly dogs, complying with laws and a hundred other things. If you add up all of those expenses, you will quickly see that there is almost never any financial gain from raising a litter of high quality puppies. What most serious breeders try to accomplish is to simply cover some of their costs.   

denise m

Just curious as to where you WOULD peg the number of dogs to be considered a dealer? 

     It's NOT about a numbers game. A pet dealer is a broker or pet store owner. They can be a small pet store w/ five dogs, or a big time operation that goes through hundreds of pups a year. But they need to comply to different regulations because they are taking over for the breeder & as such must be upheld to the same standards a breeder would. Those existing laws are in place to give buyers recourse & to ensure the dealers are going about their business in a sanitary, humane manner.

     A breeder is a breeder. Yes, there is a difference between someone like myself and a commercial breeder who relies on the sale of pups for income. However, I fall under this classification because I do make a profit off my litters - most breeders do. The state does not care if I make. say, $2000 and spend it on show entry fees or get a hip x-ray done as opposed to me making the same & spending it on a new carpet. Profit is profit, and some show breeders are in for one huge reality check because legislation like this is cropping up all over the US. This bill is especially insidious, as it was proposed "under the table". Wanted to keep it hushed.

     WE'RE GETTING THE RUG PULLED OUT FROM UNDER US IN THE NAME OF STOPPING PUPPY MILLS AND WE'RE NOT EVEN GOING TO REALIZE IT UNTIL WE FALL AND CRACK OUR HEADS!!!

I agree with most of what you wrote, but real profit is a net figure, not a gross figure.

Costs of showing dogs are a cost of breeding, and must be deducted from gross profits. Showing dogs promotes the quality of one's breeding program, and one's success (or lack thereof) in shows determines the value of a puppy from someone's breeding program.

Almost no hobby breeders make any money at all from selling puppies, if all of their costs are taken into account.

This is standard practice in any kind of business. A business that files for bankruptcy still shows a gross profit. Real profit is what is left after expenses are deducted from gross sales.

By that standard, hobby breeding cannot be fairly construed as a business - despite the fraudulent claims of animal rights groups!  

HoundMusic

 

   A pet dealer is a broker or pet store owner. They can be a small pet store w/ five dogs, or a big time operation that goes through hundreds of pups a year. But they need to comply to different regulations

So as I understand your definition if you sell your puppies directly to the end consumer (dog owner) you are not a dealer by current laws? The proposed regulations would change that definition to anyone who sells over nine dog or has over 4 unsterilized female dogs? 

In current FEDERAL law, you are not a dealer if you sell only directly to consumers.

In current NEW YORK law, you are a dealer if you sell more than 25 dogs a year to anyone.

The legislation would change that to maintaining more than four females or selling more than nine dogs or puppies to anyone. 

I think it also hinges on the words FOR PROFIT, so get receipts for everything including food bills, health testings, stud fees, vaccinations, vet bills etc., where these will prove you DO NOT MAKE A PROFIT.

denise m

A pet dealer is a broker or pet store owner. They can be a small pet store w/ five dogs, or a big time operation that goes through hundreds of pups a year. But they need to comply to different regulations

 

So as I understand your definition if you sell your puppies directly to the end consumer (dog owner) you are not a dealer by current laws? The proposed regulations would change that definition to anyone who sells over nine dog or has over 4 unsterilized female dogs? 

     Yes, as it stands now, breeders and brokers/dealers do not fall under the same category unless they are high volume breeders, and have several dozen litters per year ... however if they are breeding that many, they are likely selling to brokers.

     The new bill is going to group someone like me (i.e. hobby breeder) in with a breeder that sells to pet stores or a big time dealer who purchases pups from brokers, or the brokers who are the middle men between the store & the breeder, purchasing sometimes thousands or at least several hundred pups per year to sell to stores. They are going to categorize someone with four intact bitches who may not even have four litters per year as a dealer (i.e. pet store owner) if we sell nine pups per year.

     If you have four bitches, you are in no way, shape or form equipped to build the type of kennels that USDA requires of it's licensed commercial breeders, dealers, brokers. Nor will I or other small hobby breeders be able to keep up with the regulations of kennel management and record keeping imposed on licensed breeders. Because a hobby is just that, and we do not have the time or resources to build up to code kennels. So one of two things is going to happen if this passes. Either we are going to see reputable breeders having less litters - which is NOT a good thing, because this will negatively impact the breeds in a few years time & will not affect commercial breeders at all, so they will actually become even more common & widespread than they are now. They will be the only ones who are able to breed legally. Second, most hobby breeders may decide that they just can't afford to breed with the new imposing restrictions and will quit altogether.

     The only ones who loose if this bill passes are small hobby/show/working breeders, the breed's future as less reputable people will be contributing to the genepools, and the general public who want to go to a reputable breeder for pups. Far from hurting large scale breeders, this bill actually helps them.

eaglerock814

Almost no hobby breeders make any money at all from selling puppies, if all of their costs are taken into account.

Personally I am not buying that. I understand the high costs that can be incurred in dog breeding and although on a hobby level you are not going to become rich there are many hobby breeders that do turn a profit. I know lots of hobby breeders who have turned their passion for dogs into a nice little income suppliment and given todays economy it can be an attractive proposition. I have absolutely no problem with this as I don't believe hobby breeders are flooding the market and for the most part are producing and placing good pet quality dogs. I just am a little weary of the argument that because you are not making money, therefore you should not be subject to additional fees and regulations. In the end if it is costing you more to produce a dog, like any other business you raise the price of the product. No?   

My first thought was they were trying to shut down pit bull breeders of fighting dogs.  Given it's coming from NY...  just went back and this is for all of NY?  Hmmm...  that's different then.

Seems like 20 pups and under is a good number.  Some litters have 10 pups born to begin with.