Oprah on Puppymills

    • Gold Top Dog

    timsdat

    snownose
    Just wanted to add.......why breed?

    Now what do you think would happen if everyone felt that way?

    Would you seriously like everyone to stop breeding?

     

     

     

    LOL, I wish some HUMANS would stop breeding. Devil

    Anyway, as to enforcement of contracts, they are as any other contract would be - enforceable in the courts.  Granted, there are some problems that accrue, but that is no reason not to try to insure that your pups get returned for re-homing, rather than just shunted off to anyone.  

    I know that one of my clients recently had a problem dog (bad hips AND elbows).  The dog came from highly respected lines, with no evidence of problems in the previous five generations.  She is attached to the dog and chose to keep her and not get a replacement pup (yet).  But, the breeder is standing behind the dog and will provide another puppy AND let my friend keep the current dog. 

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    • Gold Top Dog

    I personally think the overpopulation is a result of owners failing to spay/neuter and safely care for their dogs - regardless of where they came from.  The vast majority of dogs I've seen in shelters are not purebreds from commercial breeders.

    I think the tie between dogs in shelters and commercial breeders comes more from the fact that people want fads/new dogs and thus puppies.  Thus the dogs in shelters are squeezed out of homes by the churning out of new/fad dogs and puppies from puppy mills, online overnight puppy shippers, and pathetic pet stores.  I think if fewer commercial breeders were churning out crappy dogs/puppies, there could be a balance met where people could get their fad dogs, shelter dogs, or responsibly bred dogs.

    Maybe that's too pollyanna, but combined with higher spay/neuter rates, it's not a bad image of the dog world... at least here in the US from my view.

    • Gold Top Dog

    BCMixs

    A "couple of years" IS NOT THE LIFETIME OF A DOG!!!  It's the amount of time that SHOULD be taken for dogs on the ground now to grow and develop and prove themselves to be exemplary examples of their breed after which is the right time to breed them.  NOT when they are a year because they came from good lines.  All of those unforeseen issues you breeders are claiming can't be conditioned for are unseen at that age for the most part and will be passed on in ALOT of cases.

     The majority of shelter dogs are from unplanned, mixed breed litters but rescue loves to blame breeders. From your posts I get the impression you know very little about breeding but think you know a great deal, pretty typical IME of people with your ideas. Some problems are late onset and may show themselves if you wait so you may know if you have an affected dog but the carrier status will remain an unknown until that specific disease has a DNA test.

    • Gold Top Dog

    timsdat

    You sure are.  Your ideas would destroy all breeds in this country and we would be left with very few dogs.

     

     

    Really, how so?  I've clearly stated that I'm not ANTI breeding and even disclosed my history of having purchased a purebred dog from a breeder.  What I advocate is serious enforcement of existing laws and new laws concerning commercial breeders, ie, removing them from USDA oversight because IMHO they are NOT livestock.  I also advocate education of the public about these abusive practices.  I advocate responsible breeders doing health checks for conditions known to be an issue in their particular breeds, strong contracts that protect both buyer and dog, and a delay in breeding until health conditions can be screened for or those that can't be screened for (as the epilepsy mentioned previously) to show up and prevent that potential sire or dam to contribute to the gene pool.  I advocate people who want a pekinese or a papillion, etc. who are NOT going to be showing, working, etc., to look to rescue/shelters FIRST and save the life of a purebred already in the world rather than  leaving it to die in a shelter so that they can buy what they think is a "clean, guaranteed, and untarnished" (words I've heard from people who refuse to adopt) piece of merchandise from a pet store but what in reality comes from a filthy, unlicensed, horribly abusive puppy mill.

    I  don't believe any of these ideas would destroy all breeds or leave us with few dogs.  Nothing about educating the public about the horrors of puppy mills and cutting into or eliminating pet store puppies and BYBs is going to destroy the population of purebreeds.  What it might do and should do is open the eyes of the public who does not know any better and teach them the right way to locate and obtain a particular breed if they are interested in it.   

    • Gold Top Dog

    BCMixs
    timsdat
    You sure are.  Your ideas would destroy all breeds in this country and we would be left with very few dogs.
     

    Really, how so?  I've clearly stated that I'm not ANTI breeding and even disclosed my history of having purchased a purebred dog from a breeder. 

    Actually I put that in the wrong place in the post.  It should have been directed at Nfowler.

    BCMixs
    removing them from USDA oversight because IMHO they are NOT livestock. 

    I am curious who would regulate them.  They are animals after all and that is what the USDA is all about.

    BCMixs
    I  don't believe any of these ideas would destroy all breeds or leave us with few dogs.  Nothing about educating the public about the horrors of puppy mills and cutting into or eliminating pet store puppies and BYBs is going to destroy the population of purebreeds.  What it might do and should do is open the eyes of the public who does not know any better and teach them the right way to locate and obtain a particular breed if they are interested in it.   

    One of the problems is that there is a core of people out there that think there should be no breeding and that all breeders are evil.  Now their ultimate goal is to eliminate all breeding.  Well that can't do that all at once so they are taking it one step at a time.  This part of the attack is against one part in the industry.  Do you think that they will stop at that.  In fact in many communities there are laws being proposed that will make it impossible for any breeders to continue their hobby/business.  Dallas is one example.  They want everyone that breeds a litter to have a commercial breeders license, but that license can't be tied to property zoned residential.  Palm Beach is another.  They just passed a law limiting the number of litters a breeder can have to 2 unless they are a USDA commercial licensed breeder along with restrictions on having only 2 un-neutered dogs and $1500 in fees and licenses.  NJ is another example.  They want to limit the number of litters to 1 per year per address. 

    See there are attacks against breeders on all fronts. 

    Go ahead, pass reasonable, enforceable laws for commercial breeders.  Most of the suggestions I have read here and seen in proposed laws are neither reasonable or enforceable.  One example you gave is health tests.  Now can they write a law that covers the required tests for 300 different breeds, after all it isn't a one size fits all solution.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

    Why is that asking for more problems? Just because you don't like purebreds, no one should buy one?

    No--I don't like dog production. But, branding and marketing of the purebred-puppy producers is pretty good. Hey, we're in America where money buys a person whatever they want. And it makes buyers feel good, too, knowing they paid X-amount of dollars for a dog--even "designer" ones now.

    No different than people who spent $600 for 4GB of memory at Apple.com than buying it for $100 (which they can). They feel good going to Apple.com, just like they feel good purchasing a purebred.

    Internet forums (including this one) are full of these stories. Money = special in America.

    Again--the buyers should act as though THEY matter instead of the dog breeders.

    • Gold Top Dog

    timsdat

    See there are attacks against breeders on all fronts. 

    Not really a bad thing--after all, there are consequences when you sell a house in the US--why not dogs? People who sell and/or manage products and production lines should be held accountable. We, in America, expect that more and more of all products.

    • Gold Top Dog

    nfowler
    Not really a bad thing

    Sounds like you are against all breeding.  Do you really want all breeding of dogs to go away in this country?  I asked that once but never got an answer.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    timsdat

    I am curious who would regulate them.  They are animals after all and that is what the USDA is all about.

    One of the problems is that there is a core of people out there that think there should be no breeding and that all breeders are evil.  Now their ultimate goal is to eliminate all breeding.  Well that can't do that all at once so they are taking it one step at a time.  This part of the attack is against one part in the industry.  Do you think that they will stop at that.  In fact in many communities there are laws being proposed that will make it impossible for any breeders to continue their hobby/business.  Dallas is one example.  They want everyone that breeds a litter to have a commercial breeders license, but that license can't be tied to property zoned residential.  Palm Beach is another.  They just passed a law limiting the number of litters a breeder can have to 2 unless they are a USDA commercial licensed breeder along with restrictions on having only 2 un-neutered dogs and $1500 in fees and licenses.  NJ is another example.  They want to limit the number of litters to 1 per year per address. 

    See there are attacks against breeders on all fronts. 

    Go ahead, pass reasonable, enforceable laws for commercial breeders.  Most of the suggestions I have read here and seen in proposed laws are neither reasonable or enforceable.  One example you gave is health tests.  Now can they write a law that covers the required tests for 300 different breeds, after all it isn't a one size fits all solution.

     

     

    Off the top of my head, I'd put oversight under the individual state vet's office or some sort of commerce department.  In general, the USDA is overseeing agriculture, things that are produced for FOOD.  Pet animals come in when the breeding operation reaches a certain size and that size is considered to be a farming operation, not a home based hobby or small kennel breeder. 

    I also think letting the localities legislate what works for their residents is best.  A law that's appropriate in a congested metropolitan area such as Manhattan is probably not as appropriate for a wide open place like Montana.  I don't understand the resistance to a kennel license.  If I add one more dog to my household, bringing it to 3, I'd have to apply for a kennel license in my county.  It lets the locality know where collections of dogs are for a number of reasons, health, safety, and neighborhood standards.  If you're out in the country and have 10 dogs it's a different situation for your neighbors 10 acres away than it is for those living in a condo.  There's also the issue of sanitation and housing for the animals.  Admittedly, my county is stupid, I could have 100 cats with no problem at all.  Not arguing it makes sense or is appropriate but without it, a neighbor of someone with 10 barking dogs has no recourse other than late night noise ordinances and it affects their property values.  If they're forced to get a kennel license, the neighbors are notified and have opportunity to comment at a public hearing and express issues they might have with it.  It also prevents a kennel situation from being set up in a small residential house, where it is not appropriate.

    Leaving the legislation to the localities also gives a hobby breeder the ability to speak to an issue which affects them directly with their local representative.  If a national limit of 1 litter per year were to be passed, it would be difficult for someone with a farm in Nevada to show that their situation is different from an apartment dweller in NYC. 

    As far as legislating for health checks, I don't think that it needs to specify all health conditions that would be covered.  It could partner with registries for suggestions as to which conditions are prevalent in particular groups.  Or it could mandate a type of contract that must be issued with the sale of all companion animals.  A contract that would require the types of things previously mentioned, such as contacting the breeder before relinquishing or selling, the types of lemon laws that are starting to crop up, but tougher in areas like mine where you have 10 days to discover a health problem!  I also think the government needs to get involved and regulate these registries.  You should not be able to just set up a registry and issue papers without having to prove that you are conducting some inspections and somehow participating in a positive way to the health and welfare of dogs you are registering.  The general public sees letters next to a dog's name and think that means some sort of quality guarantee.  The government should ensure for the sake of the buyers that it does.

    At the end of the day, I don't believe this (puppy mills) would be such a hot topic in the media and public opinion if there weren't sick puppies being perpetuated out there.   At any given dog park or pet store you can find someone carrying a small designer dog who KNOWS there's a problem with pet store puppies but buys them anyway.  I think the reason that is is that they don't know where else to go or how else to get the tiny designer dog they want.  If registries and breeders took a more active role in helping educate the public and work on the problems, they might not find their right to breed being restricted and attacked.  And when videos like the ones taken at mill after mill in state after state continue to be seen, the public knee jerk response will continue as well.  If all commercial breeding facilities were as great as you seem to be saying that they are, there wouldn't be so many of these videos from so many states.  Where are the videos from breeders who are operating large scale facilities showing how great and clean and well-vetted they are?  To my earlier point, even IF this is a clean, sanitary and ethically run facility, when you have 100 breeding dogs and even more puppies being born, those puppies are NOT going to be getting the type of early socialization that is so critical to preventing behavioral problems, so if only on that front, I oppose large commercial operations or hobby breeders who have large numbers of puppies at one time.  There's only so many hours in the day and those first 8 weeks are critical.  I'm painfully aware of that now that I have adopted a pup who spent his first 8 weeks of life alone with a feral mom under an abandoned house.

    Finally, No. I do not feel I know alot about breeding.  I know very little and have said so.  What I do know is what I experienced at the hands of a reputable responsible breeder during my purchase of a purebred dog.  And how that breeders practices helped to ensure a positive experience for both myself and my dog.  And to my mind, those two parties rights trump those of the breeders because, in the end, we are spending a whole lot more years together than you are. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    nfowler
    No--I don't like dog production. But, branding and marketing of the purebred-puppy producers is pretty good. Hey, we're in America where money buys a person whatever they want. And it makes buyers feel good, too, knowing they paid X-amount of dollars for a dog--even "designer" ones now.

     So in your eyes there is no reason to want a purebred dog other than as a status symbol? You really have a very narrow view of the issue. I have the dogs I have because of who they are, so to speak - I like their character, temperament, trainability, intelligence, looks, generaly good health, lifespan and much more. I'd be out of luck if I had these dogs as status symbols as most average people who see them think they are mutts ;) And as for being able to feel good bragging about the money I spent buying them, several of my purebreds were given to me. Purchasing a dog is hardly the expensive part of owning one.

    • Gold Top Dog

     My heart is in rescue. I'm a sucker for animals (and people) in need. But in my admittedly limited experience, the MAIN problem we have is with unchecked reproduction of mixed breeds and poorly bred "purebreds." Yeah, HD may not be the rocking issue in the shelter crowd, but temperament? Yikes. There are some lovely lovely dogs getting euth'd in shelters, but there are also a ton of dogs with issues that are difficult to deal with.

    I adore Sasha. She's my baby, my love. But no one should be intentionally breeding a dog with her anxiety levels.

    Free or low cost spay and neuter. Crack down on mass puppy producers who keep dogs in terrible conditions. Those are the first two steps towards improving both the lives of dogs and the quality of dogs. Yes, quality. A dog with anxiety is not "worth less" as a being, but if you were planning on sending 100 dogs into families with children, would you like stable dogs or anxious dogs?

    I'm not a fan of "puppy factories" and large commercial breeders, but I am 100% in favor of concerned and thoughtful breeders adding to the future of dogs.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dog_ma
    I adore Sasha. She's my baby, my love. But no one should be intentionally breeding a dog with her anxiety levels

    A dog with anxiety is not "worth less" as a being, but if you were planning on sending 100 dogs into families with children, would you like stable dogs or anxious dogs?

      Quite a lot depends on the dog's training and upbringing as well and lack of training/socialization is certainly something you see in shelter dogs. A dog with an iffy temperament as a puppy who has an owner that makes training and socializing a priority, can often turn into a nice pet (and these owners aren't going to dump the dog at the shelter). But even a dog with a good temperament can have issues if he was raised without socialization, training or rules (typical of dogs dumped at shelter). I do believe temperament is genetic but I also believe that the expression of temperament can have a lot to do with the dog's upbringing.

    • Bronze

    Well I have read all the posts on this topic and I can't believe some of the things that I read, but I agree with what some individuals opinions were.  Obviously this is a very controversial topic, especially on a dog lovers forum!  I just wanted to add a few comments:

    1.  I can't believe that anyone who watched Oprah's show could defend any of those kennels, regardless of the actual video clips.  I don't care if those dogs had indoor spaces to go to, the pens were filthy and I can only imagine what the inside of those places looked like.  Yes, the show may have focused on the most appalling conditions but honestly isn't that how anyone makes a point???  Whether it be animal rights activits or commercial breeders who are supposedly humane and responsible.  Do you honestly think that those responsible commercial breeders would disclose the irresponsible millers when they were trying to support their businesses.  I don't think so.

    2.  I believe strongly that people should rescue dogs from shelters but I also believe that if you want a purebred dog and become educated when you go to find a responsible breeder who spends the time breeding healthy lines that you are not simply purchasing a status symbol.  That is ridiculous!  I have adopted a dog from a shelter and she was wonderful.  But I now own 2 purebred dogs which I purchased for very specific reasons.  I spent over a year visiting different breeders for both my dogs and I feel that I found wonderful breeders who are responsible and dedicated to their breed.  Do I think that I did anything wrong?  Certainly not!  I think that it is terrible that people believe that NO ONE should breed and that people should only adopt from shelters.  If I could not have a purebred would I not have dogs?  Definitely not, I can't imagine life without at least one dog in my home.  But honestly, I feel that my 2 purebred dogs are wonderful and I don't regret purchasing them at all.  Even though I do feel terribly about all the dogs currently in shelters.  As others mentioned I feel that is the result of individuals not spaying and neutering, not the result purebred dogs being bred by responsible breeders.  One other item that I wanted to mention - I am an active participant in conformation and breed specific field trials.  I could not participate in theses hobbies if I had a mixed breed from a shelter.  Not everyone that has a purebred dog is looking to raise their status in society.

     One last thing, I went to a pet store this week (against my better judgement) to see what kind of puppies were for sale.  This particular store is in a large very popular shopping centre.  There were probably 30-40 puppies for sale.  All different breeds, including mixed breeds.  There were signs all over the glass windows of their cages stating that the puppies were seen by a vet at least twice before they went home, they were from reputable breeders and they had a health guarantee from the store.  When I went to the front desk to request more information the sales clerk could not provide me with the vets name, nor the breeder that they had purchased the puppies from.  These puppies were being sold for crazy prices!  They started at $1500 and went up to $3200 for a Chow Chow.  None of these dogs were registered, none were tattooed or microchipped and many of them just plain looked unwell.  It was disgusting and so very, very sad.  The saddest thing was that there wewre probably 30-50 people in the store looking at them and there were quite a few that were discussing if they could afford the monthly payments that the store offered.  You can't tell me that ANY responsible breeder wold sell their puppies to a pet store!!!  What a joke!

     

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    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD
    rescue loves to blame breeders

    Gotta call that out as fairly inaccurate for a host of reasons.  But maybe that's self-evident to the rest of us reading it.  I'd say it's more accurate that rescue looks at failures from the owners first, then backyard breeders (who fall under "owner", too), then puppy millers, etc.  Most of us who rescue respect responsible breeders.

    • Gold Top Dog

    miranadobe
    Gotta call that out as fairly inaccurate for a host of reasons.  But maybe that's self-evident to the rest of us reading it.  I'd say it's more accurate that rescue looks at failures from the owners first, then backyard breeders (who fall under "owner", too), then puppy millers, etc.  Most of us who rescue respect responsible breeders.

     I wish that were my experience. I'm not saying ALL rescue people blame breeders but there is very, very often anti-breeder feelings towards those involved in rescue IME.