Oprah on Puppymills

timsdat

HoundMusic

Where did I EVER say I was ok with dogs being abused/neglected?

Hound, Apparently you have forgotten the gospel according to AR. 

I'm not an AR fanatic. But, I don't understand how anyone could defend those images shown on Oprah, as HoundMusic has. If you're just fine with the way those places treat dogs, why not treat your own dog like that? Oh, because you know that they way those dogs are treated is horrible. It is abuse and neglect to treat an animal that way. HoundMusic, you have a picture of your dogs lounging on a couch, why don't you think other dogs should have the same luxury? Because you think it's ok to "farm" those dogs, as long as they aren't your own. You think it's OK for dogs to be bred over, and over, never play, never have a family of their own, never have a comfy couch, never have a name, because you believe everyone- no matter what education they have- everyone has the right to breed their dog. I do not think just anyone should have this right, but a knowledgeable, repsonsible, ethical breeder should have this privaledge.

I'm not an AR fanatic, like I said, but I do believe in humane rights. I believe responsible, ethical breeding to improve a breed or for the purpose of working, or even as a quality- all health tests and other necessary tests done- family pet is OK. I believe going to a rescue, pound, shelter is OK too. But I will never, ever, support commercial "farming" of dogs.

 I think you're selling John Q Public short and that sort of disdain is what makes it so easy for buyapupNOW.com and puppy selling stores to perpetuate this industry.  I knew nothing about breeding and what made a reputable breeder when I began my search for a dog.  If the Richmond SPCA had been slightly less zealous and took some time to help us find a low-shedding dog, we probably would've ended up with a rescue.  But, I was fortunate while researching dogs to discover terriers, read loads of websites from breeders of all types (good and bad) what I learned first was from websites from responsible breeders who had information about how to find the right dog in the right way.  I was able to take what they said and compare it with the "Send us $500 today and we'll ship your pup tonight!" sites and say to myself, "Hmm, one of these things is not like the others!"  Then when I did make phone contact with the breeders who seemed good to my newbie mind, they spent the time to find out who I was and why I was interested in their breed, to educate me about the breed and to explain why they may not have dogs available but pointed me to other breeders they respected and had worked with.  That impressed me, because they weren't trying to hold me captive so they could make sure they sold me THEIR pups or dogs.  They also impressed me because they brought up health testing first and offered results up front, documentation with names, registrations numbers and organizations (like OFA).  They were not shady and guarded about sharing their information like BYBs and pet stores have been that I've contacted.  They let me see the pups with their mother, I saw the father, they let me see where they were housed (INSIDE I might add), I was able to view their entire facility, the pups were not kept behind closed doors and brought out to me one by one.  It's that transparency that makes a difference.  And the willingness to compassionately educate the public that's going to win the war and change the perception that all breeders are puppy millers.

ETA: It's that info I learned from compassionate and reputable breeders that I share with potential buyers who say they're looking for a particular breed and it's those kind of questions I ask when BYBs show up at the dog park trying to sell their pups.  Not for myself or because I'd buy, but so that those standing around me who are considering it hear those answers and so it plants some seeds. 

I fail to understand why people who clearly know that abuse is rampant in the puppy mill industry, who clearly know the health risks of getting a BYB dog whether from a person who has one bitch or 20, continue to defend their rights.

I don't care if someone makes a profit. It's not my business. I do care if they offer a dysplasia guarantee that reads, "If OFA certified to have severe, crippling, dysplasia by 25 months, we will give a new puppy of our choice". First you can't get OFA until 24 months. No mention of the OFA certs on the parents. So if the dog has severe, crippling dysplasia, it will probably either be fixed or the dog will be PTS. Secondly who'd take a puppy from the same breeder knowing their dog will be PTS." It's lip service. And it is wrong.  I saw that today.

I don't understand why people support this. Are their personal interests that compelling that thousands of dogs and people should suffer?

Stacita

I fail to understand why people who clearly know that abuse is rampant in the puppy mill industry, who clearly know the health risks of getting a BYB dog whether from a person who has one bitch or 20, continue to defend their rights.

     Ok, here goes ... I nor anyone else defending the right of commercial breeders to breed in no way condones those kennels who choose to operate unlicensed, filthy, neglectful facilities. See, when I said they showed the *worst* kennels - worst means bad. Not good. Me no like. I still believe those who operate clean, professional kennels should have the right to do so & my problem with the show was that it grouped all commercial breeders who sell to pet stores in the category of filthy, unkempt puppy mill. That was my "beef" with the show, and if anyone takes that to mean I support animal cruelty, go right ahead and believe that. Have a nice day

Stacita

I don't care if someone makes a profit. It's not my business. I do care if they offer a dysplasia guarantee that reads, "If OFA certified to have severe, crippling, dysplasia by 25 months, we will give a new puppy of our choice". First you can't get OFA until 24 months. No mention of the OFA certs on the parents. So if the dog has severe, crippling dysplasia, it will probably either be fixed or the dog will be PTS. Secondly who'd take a puppy from the same breeder knowing their dog will be PTS." It's lip service. And it is wrong.  I saw that today.

 There really is nothing abnormal or wrong about such a guarantee. Since OFA accepts applications on dogs on their 2nd birthday and older, 25 months gives the owner close to a month to have their dog OFA'd. If that the HD guarantee is important to you, you'll make an appointment to have your dog OFA'd when they turn two :) 

 It isn't wrong just because you don't like it or don't agree with it. Nothing needs to be done to force breeders to change their guarantees - buyers have a choice in who they buy from, if they want a guarantee, what the guarantee should cover and what terms they find acceptable. Don't like that a guarantee says you have to give the dog back? Find a breeder who allows you to both keep your dog and get a refund/replacement puppy. Don't want to have to OFA right at 2 years? Find a breeder with guarantee that has a longer time frame. Think a cash refund is the only acceptable rebate for a health issues? Find a breeder who agrees and offers that. Or just buy an already health tested adult dog :)

 HD doesn't mean the dog will be PTS or will be crippled. If you are looking at a breed where HD is a concern, all breeders will (and likely have) produced HD in litters at some time. Even GSD breeders who use the ZW system (a more evolved HD rating system) and still have produced HD. Some dogs will just be bad matches for each other and produce issues that they haven't when bred to other dogs. In breeds where HD is an issue, it will pop up even in carefully planned litters. It is polygenetic and there is no test to determine if a dog carries the genes for it. All xrays tell you is that the dog does or does not have HD themselves, not their likelyhood of producing it. Do you think good breeders never produce dogs with health problems?

Pardon me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

There are extremists around here, all right, and they have nothing to do with animal rights.

Now pardon me while I go off to do Satan's work.

HoundMusic, I'm appalled at your attitude, especially as a hound owner.  Just popping back in to say that I think the bad thing about commercial kennels, even the clean ones, is that they still produce pups that are shipped too early, end up in pet stores where JQP doesn't get any education or help as they would with a reputable breeder, and there are already too darn many of the "popular" breeds, never mind all the hounds and herding mixes all over the south,  ending up in a shelter/rescue system that can't hope to deal with them all.

How can you look at www.dogsindanger.com and still think it's ok to dump 5,000 more hound puppies on the market????????????????? 

Does YOUR favorite commercial kennel take back the dogs it breeds for life???  Nah, just cha-ching....  Sickening. 

BCMixs

Yes, all those things are true.  However, if you educate a potential buyer directly about the incidences of epilepsy in your breed, provide veterinary records on dam and sire showing neither have been affected by it up to the date of breeding, and have the buyer acknowledge that they know it could be a possibility despite your diligence and accept that responsibility, you show yourself to be a more responsible and conscientious breeder.  I'm not arguing that a breeder must take back, vet and care for every dog it breeds but by requiring it's return in their contract, they can make the euthanization decision and can also prevent the pup from being dumped at a shelter.  By spaying or neutering prior to sale to pet buyers or requiring it before papers are released, they reduce the chances the dog will be back yard bred or bought by millers and bred into oblivion.  While both of those things take time and effort, I don't believe they are unduly restrictive financially.  And with people paying $1200 for mixes, I think it could be built into a breeder's cost rather easily.

 I wouldn't require a puppy buyer return a dog due to illness, as most owners by time an illness shows up are attached to their dog and don't want to part with them (at least, the sort of owners I want my puppies to live with). My contract states the dog will be returned to me if they can no longer keep it or that I can alternatively approve a new home for the dog if they knew someone who wanted it (that really would depend on the situation). States the dog is not to be sold, given away, surrendered to a shelter or transfer ownership without my knowledge and written approval. So far, there has only been one time any transfer occured and it was a junior being added as co-owner of a finished dog. I also have in my contract that the dog is not to be PTS due to temperament issues without my being notified and having an option to take the dog back instead. For me I don't and won't S/N puppies before they leave and it has nothing to do with money. I do not believe it is in the best interest of the puppy and discourage their new owners from having it done early as well. To be honest, the only S/N issue I have had with my puppy buyers is that the pet owners want to and will S/N too early. In rarer breeds, it is not uncommon for breeders to require even pet home puppies are kept intact and available for breeding for at least X period of time (say until they are 3 or 4 years old), especially males.

AgileGSD

HD doesn't mean the dog will be PTS or will be crippled.

And after you become attached to the dog (as you later state), it's too hard to give her back, let alone trust that the next one you receive will NOT have HD or other issus. Our corporate lawyer thinks breeders have it made in the shade--given this attachment rule. They really aren't held responsible, even with the so-called lemon laws. And for that reason, he'll never pay money for a dog again. His high-priced purebred was crippled by HD and wasn't PTS, thanks to his billfold.

Try telling the owners of HD dogs that their dogs aren't crippled. So many of them die much younger than they would have. And while I know producing a dog without health problems cannot always be done--to the person who owns her, it's life-altering and heartbreaking. I read their stories over and over and over--and the majority of the dogs are purebreds who owners carefully investigated the breeders and lines prior to carefully purchasing the dog.

This push to produce dogs has got to stop. I, for one, agree with the lawyer's practice of not paying money for a purebred whose health and emotional/mental problems cannot be 100% guaranteed.

AgileGSD

My contract states the dog will be returned to me if they can no longer keep it or that I can alternatively approve a new home for the dog if they knew someone who wanted it (that really would depend on the situation). States the dog is not to be sold, given away, surrendered to a shelter or transfer ownership without my knowledge and written approval. So far, there has only been one time any transfer occured and it was a junior being added as co-owner of a finished dog. I also have in my contract that the dog is not to be PTS due to temperament issues without my being notified and having an option to take the dog back instead.

AND, how exactly do you enforce this part of the contract?

What happens when the owners move, change phone number, divorce or death happens......or simply don't want to deal with the dog anymore.....let's say you still have the phone number and happen to check( which most breeders don't), and give you a story the dog ran away.........too much ground to cover......

I am not against breeding.....but, I have had to deal with so many rescues.......it is flat out sickening......

nfowler

They really aren't held responsible, even with the so-called lemon laws.

Florida's lemon law provides for A. returning the dog and getting another puppy, or B. returning the dog and getting a full refund on the price, or C. keeping the dog and getting refunded for vet bills up to the price of the dog.  Sounds like the just all someone can do.

nfowler

And after you become attached to the dog (as you later state), it's too hard to give her back, let alone trust that the next one you receive will NOT have HD or other issus. Our corporate lawyer thinks breeders have it made in the shade--given this attachment rule. They really aren't held responsible, even with the so-called lemon laws.

This is why I don't really recognize the different types of breeders, responsible versus irresponsible.  Its so fluid to move from one type to another.

Just wanted to add.......why breed?

To better the breed? Is your(general) dog so special the breed will suffer if you don't breed? Some folks have claimed to make a good profit....is the money a motivator?

snownose

Just wanted to add.......why breed?

Now what do you think would happen if everyone felt that way?

Would you seriously like everyone to stop breeding?

nfowler

And after you become attached to the dog (as you later state), it's too hard to give her back, let alone trust that the next one you receive will NOT have HD or other issus. Our corporate lawyer thinks breeders have it made in the shade--given this attachment rule. They really aren't held responsible, even with the so-called lemon laws. And for that reason, he'll never pay money for a dog again. His high-priced purebred was crippled by HD and wasn't PTS, thanks to his billfold.

Try telling the owners of HD dogs that their dogs aren't crippled. So many of them die much younger than they would have. And while I know producing a dog without health problems cannot always be done--to the person who owns her, it's life-altering and heartbreaking. I read their stories over and over and over--and the majority of the dogs are purebreds who owners carefully investigated the breeders and lines prior to carefully purchasing the dog.

This push to produce dogs has got to stop. I, for one, agree with the lawyer's practice of not paying money for a purebred whose health and emotional/mental problems cannot be 100% guaranteed.

  What push to produce dogs? How would you expect a breeder to be able to 100% guarantee the health and temperament of their puppy?

 Many owners never realize their dog has HD until the dog is old because the dog doesn't have obvious symptoms until then. Mixed breed dogs develop HD too and are no less prone to it than the breeds in their mix are. In fact mixed breeds are prone to all of the same genetic issues purebred dogs are, depending on their mix. Of course it is heartbreaking for dogs have have any long term health problem (or a short term health problem that causes bad illness for that matter) but such problems are not limited to purebreds in any way.