Save The "Bullied" Breeds

    • Gold Top Dog
    Well said, Christina![sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]
    • Gold Top Dog
    [size=4]I suspect they're as appalled by your post as am I.... 
    [/size]
     
    What the heck are you talking about!?  There is NOTHING apalling about my post.  You said that you didn't like dogs who were "Trained to harm humans" so I asked if that included K9 officers, because THOSE dogs are technically trained to potentially harm DANGEROUS humans to keep your sorry butt safe!
     
    I know quite a few police officers who are K9 handlers...best dogs I ever met!  You meet quite a few handlers when you work in schutzhund.  Stable dogs, great temperaments, but when they are on the job, they are NOT playing games.  Those dogs do the job they are bred to do in order to keep unappreciative people like you safe!
     
    And I'm a GIRL think you very much.  Nothing dudish about me.  And tell my dangerous dog (the one in my signature) that he can't be trusted, even though he's doing the foundation work to become a certified Therapy Dog.
     
    I don't support breed bans.  It starts at Pits, then it goes to Rotts, Dobes, and GSDs.  All of them have their fanciers that strive to preserve the breeds as they are meant to be.  Biddable, highly intelligent, trainable, working dogs that are also awesome family companions.
     
    To me, being prejudiced against a breed of dog is just as bad as being a racist, and it speaks volumes about one's character
    • Gold Top Dog
    To me, being prejudiced against a breed of dog is just as bad as being a racist, and it speaks volumes about one's character

     
    You are absolutely right.  In my opinoin, racial profiling and ethnic ;prejudice is disgusting.
    • Gold Top Dog
    are they seriously thinking of doing a nationwide ban on pitbulls and other bullie breeds???

    I've known pitbulls and I've NEVER, EVER met a sweeter dog in my life. She let me hold her babies and gave me kisses on my hands.

    But, anyway, it doesn't surprise me that they've banned these dogs in some states. I'm not shocked by what the federal government and some states do anymore.

    But, yeah, when they ban these dogs, how does that work? What happens to people who already own them once the ban is put into effect? Is there some type of grandfather law on it? Or do you have to get rid of your dog right there on the spot?

    And, yeah, chows went through a phase of being labeled fearsome (I wasn't aware that their phase was over though, heh). I remember because when I was 13 my mom wanted to get a chow and didn't know much about the breed so she called her Vet and the vet said they'd rather see us get a doberman than a chow because the chow was the meanest dog they had ever seen. I've come across 2 chows in my time, granted they were the meanest dogs I'd ever encountered, but I still would put it on the owners. Not due to bad training, but a lack of.
    • Gold Top Dog
    "...Screw all the statistics and studies..."

    do you have any stats or studies that can be pointed to that validate your theory on pit bull? i would love to read them. i would also like to point out that in my opinion any dog bite stories reported by the media should be viewed as antecdotal and slanted, unless they can quote some specific statistics and studies to back up their story.
    • Puppy
    "...Screw all the statistics and studies..."

    do you have any stats or studies that can be pointed to that validate your theory on pit bull? i would love to read them. i would also like to point out that in my opinion any dog bite stories reported by the media should be viewed as antecdotal and slanted, unless they can quote some specific statistics and studies to back up their story.

     
    You want statistics...?  OK...here you go...
     




     






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    [linkhttp://www.sfgate.com/][/link]        [linkhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/07/16/EBGH47KIR31.DTL]Return to regular view[/link]




    [linkhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/16/EBGH47KIR31.DTL]Vocal pit bull owners stand by the breed, despite the statistics[/link]
    - [email=cnevius@sfchronicle.com]C.W. Nevius[/email]
    Friday, July 16, 2004


    Last week, wherever I went, I was asked the same question: How much mail did you get after your pit bull column?
    After the attack by a pit bull on an 88-year-old woman in Concord, another reporter suggested that I look into the subject of how dangerous pit bulls really are. But he warned me, those pit people are passionate.
    I will never doubt him again. When I cited government statistics showing that pit bulls were much more likely to be involved in fatal attacks, I got hundreds of responses. Once the column reached the pit bull chat sites I would estimate the number of e-mails was up over 600. And they are still coming in.
    So a big reaction wasn't a surprise. But a lot of it was not what I expected. Despite predictions of nonstop e-mail flaming from fanatic pit bull owners, the response ran pretty much 50-50 pro and con.
    Besides the flaming rants, there were thoughtful negative responses. These fell in two broad categories. First, the "I have the sweetest pit bull in the world, and he has never hurt a flea.'' Second, "Your numbers and statistics are all wrong. (What's this Centers for Disease Control, anyhow?)" one asked.
    I dutifully attempted to answer the ocean of e-mails and even responded to responses for a while with more statistics and numbers. But gradually I realized there was only one thing that was going to make them happy -- if I completely changed my opinion and declared that it was a wonderful idea to own a pit bull, especially around kids and small dogs. Several demanded that I apologize to pit bull owners.
    Uh ... no.
    I will, however, try to answer some of the most commonly raised points. (Except for the one about how I'm "an idiot.'' Frankly I don't have the stats on that.)
    Luckily, I have help. Among those who wrote was Dr. Alan Beck of the Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine. Beck, a biologist, has studied dogs, breeds, and even worked in shelters during his schooling at Johns Hopkins University.
    Beck has dealt with the pit bull fanatics in his studies as an epidemiologist and says he's observed that, "The arguments and the people strike me as very similar to the gun control people.'' First was the question of the overall population of pit bulls. Sure, several readers complained, if the pit bull population is increasing it is obvious there are more bites.
    For starters, although pit bulls are being bred (and over bred) wildly, most experts, including Beck and his former student, Randall Lockwood, of the Humane Society of the United States, estimate that pit bulls and pit mixes are no more than 6 percent of the overall dog population.
    For his study Beck used the American Kennel Club registrations by breed. Although the AKC doesn't register or recognize pit bulls as a breed, Beck included the broad range of dogs, like Staffordshire terriers that fall within the range. Beck stresses that, if anything, his inclusion of dogs with pit bull characteristics was conservative, it was not a wide range of any dog with a square jaw, for instance. And before you fire up your flaming e-mail, Beck reminds you that this is "a representative sample,'' not the total of all dogs. But it is certainly larger than the one we use to rate television programs.
    "It was clear,'' Beck says, "that pit bulls were a very small part of the dog population. And second, that small part was accounting for 40-50 percent of the fatal attacks.''
    That's the real point. Your pit bull "Cuddles'' is a wonderful dog. But as Judge Francis X. Gorman who in a ruling in Toledo recently, "Arguably, some families own docile pit bulls who have never threatened anybody; possibly their violent instincts have been effectively diluted over succeeding generations. The undeniable fact remains, however, that a disproportionate number of pit bulls have been involved in very serious attacks.''
    I tried to give the next point the benefit of the doubt, but frankly it was hard to stomach. Several writers suggested in one way or another that Mabel Wong, the Concord woman who was badly mauled two weeks ago, somehow brought the attack on herself. She invaded the dog's space, they said, and she should have been more careful.
    "Well, look,'' Beck says. "You can't fix a shotgun to your door to go off when someone comes in even if you are trying to catch someone who is not supposed to be there. By law, it is our responsibility to keep the pool covered, not the kids to stay out of it.''
    Others wrote that it is all those terrible owners who are the real problem. That's true to a point. The number of backyard breeders is appalling. The dogs are poorly cared for and often end up homeless. That is one reason the percentage of pit bulls killed in shelters, according to studies by animal expert Merritt Clifton, is 93 percent.
    "However,'' says Beck, "if a very small part of the dog population accounts for 40 to 50 percent of the serious and fatal attacks, 'pit bull- ness' is the cause." Look, we are not surprised when a pointer starts pointing, or when my dachshund starts digging. Everyone accepts that. But if we start talking about a low tolerance for pain and a propensity to attack (with pit bulls) it is wrong.
    We wouldn't allow this in any other case. If this animal was carrying a disease we'd just say, "You can't have it." That's why you can't have monkeys. They are too prone to disease. The pit bull has a disease. Now maybe it was us who caused it (over years of breeding), but at this point he does not fit in well in an urban environment.''
    "What do you want to do -- ban all dogs?" (A reader asked this in all seriousness.)
    No, but I would favor something like the new law in Boston that requires pit bulls to be muzzled in public, or the Colorado law that abolishes the "one free bite'' rule that has allowed dogs to get away with a first attack. And again, I'd watch pit bulls carefully.
    As Beck says, "I would never let you come into my house with a pit bull when my grandkids were visiting.''
    That's his right. Putting a pit bull in our neighborhood isn't illegal. But it doesn't mean we have to like it.
    E-mail C.W. Nevius at [email=cwnevius@sfchronicle.com]cwnevius@sfchronicle.com[/email].
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    Of course, this article and the studies quoted come from the San Francisco Chronicle, a paper well-known as being anti pit bull...isn't it...?  I love that his respondents use the same "logical" defenses you folks use....
    • Gold Top Dog
    i would have to say that the article is very misleading. the three figures that i can find in the article that relate to pit bull attacks are.....
    "...pit bulls and pit mixes are no more than 6 percent of the overall dog population" -- ok i can buy that.

    "that pit bulls were a very small part of the dog population. And second, that small part was accounting for 40-50 percent of the fatal attacks." --- this is the misleading part. with no other figures listed. 50% is not a valid number. if there are only two fatal attacks and one of them is by a pit bull, one is not that many. so i ask 50% of what? like it or not, this is "media slant" if not outright irresponsible journalism. again this article does not provide or point to any concrete numbers, only percentages and heresay.

    "That is one reason the percentage of pit bulls killed in shelters, according to studies by animal expert Merritt Clifton, is 93 percent."--- this is the sad ending for more than 9 out of every 10 dogs taken to the shelter. if it were people, it would be called genocide.

    so i ask again, where are the concrete numbers that the media seems to always vaguely refer to?
    • Gold Top Dog
    here are some concrete numbers....

    Breed Name                                        Tested   Passed     Failed       Percent
    AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER                     515        430             85               83.5%
    AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER       503        419             84               83.3%

    this is from the American Temperment Testing Society (www.atts.org). check their site for temperment testing results on many different breeds. (note: they do list a percentage, but with numbers to back it up.) the numbers above are better than the numbers produced by chihuahuas and italian greyhounds.
    • Gold Top Dog
    First of all, I googled Dr. Beck, and have found no place that states HOW he came to the percentage of total dogs that are pit bulls.  If he started with the AKC, then it was flawed from the start.  The Center for Disease Control (who is against breed bans, BTW, and has found them to be ineffective) does not list "pit bulls" in their stats.  They list "pit type dogs."  This, I would argue, is basically 5 groups of dogs--registered APBTs, registered Amstaffs, registered Staffie Bulls, unregistered pit bulls, and pit mixes/anything that looks pit bullish.  Out of these 5, only two are even registered with the AKC.
     
    The thing that really discredits Dr. Beck is the fact that he refuses to agknowledge that HUMANS have anything to do with the "pit bull problem."  Not only is this incredibley irresponsible, but it is completely wrong headed.
     
    Every single source I have read on the issue, including "Fatal Dog Attacks," by Karen Delise, sites people as the problem behind ALL dog attacks, including pits.
     
    Notice that the only anti-pitbull "expert" your reporter was able to scare up was Dr. Beck.  Maybe that is because there really aren't any others.
     
    I find it interesting that the only "statistics" you were able to bring to the table was an EDITORIAL that bore no real statistics--an editorial that was built entirely on the opinions of one vet, who apparently does not believe that humans have anything to do with canine aggression, and is countered by just about every vet/trainer/rescuer/expert/the Center for Disease Control.
     
    My, that's some steller research there.....
    • Puppy
    "That is one reason the percentage of pit bulls killed in shelters, according to studies by animal expert Merritt Clifton, is 93 percent."--- this is the sad ending for more than 9 out of every 10 dogs taken to the shelter. if it were people, it would be called genocide.

     
    It's clear, no matter how damning are the statistics quoted, those whose minds are closed can dispute or distort them to suit their predetermined stance....  That a pb which can, with one bite, maim or kill a human being could be compared, somehow, to a Chihuahua best illustrates this point. 
     
    This board encourages "preaching to the choir" to the point that any opinion different from said choir can/will be drowned out easily.  Common sense takes a back seat to emotions, which is understandable, given our emotional attachments to our canine friends--understandable but not defendable. 
     
    Pointing dogs point, retrievers retrieve, Chihuahuas yap and, alas, fighting dogs fight.  Assuming, for the moment, the discussion focuses strictly on responsible breeders, dedicated to furthering--or, at least, sustaining--the best attributes of any given breed, breeders of pointers will strive to accentuate the attributes inherent to pointers...the same goes for retrievers and so on (what specific "attributes" Chihuahua breeders deem worthwhile is still up for debate  haha). 
     
    Now, what percent of breeders would the disciples of this board characterize as being "responsible?"  5%?  10%?  Surely, it couldn't be more than 20%...right...?  OK, so most dogs come from a combination of backyard breeders, mills and nature...is that reasonable...?  The average ill-bred golden will still, probably instinctually retrieve and will, most-likely, resemble a Golden's general confirmation...same for pointers, Chihuahuas, etc....
     
    If all that's true, generally speaking, the same should hold true for fighting dogs....  Responsible breeders aren't emphasizing "gameness" or aggressiveness in their dogs...to the contrary, they're deemphasizing such traits, opting for trueness in comfirmation, health and other such positive traits.  Being pbs and pb mixes are the fastest growing breed in the US and, that the majority are ill-bred or, purposely bred for gameness and aggression, the problem is clear to see....
     
    Now, lets deal with the majority of all dogs conceived.  The ill-breed Chihuahua, at the end of a leash raises it's hackles, screams it's stupid head off and, when someone stupid enough to attempt petting it does so..."Ouch...that dog bit my finger...!"  Lesson learned.  The cost?  A sore finger.  Now...same scenario, different dog--one whose jaws resemble those of a shark....  That the cost of this scenario could cause so much more damage shouldn't be ignored.... 
     
    If you want to, go ahead and blame the stupid people for approaching the dogs--surely, a prudent person wouldn't do so....  Still, the disparity of COST between such foolishness.... 
     
    As I Googled the web (pit bull statistics) I ran across story after story of pbs being shot and killed by police officers (so much for the schutzhund theories).  I suppose all police officers aren't the brightest bulbs but, it doesn't take too much time on the job to figure out what poses a risk to life and limb and what doesn't.  Google till your keyboard breaks--you'll not discover an incident where a Chihuahua, or even a pack of 'em, was shot by the police....  Yes, this is a black and white comparison and, yes, there are some bad apples among generally more docile breeds out there.... 
     
    STILL, if the above-mentioned percentages of good to bad dogs is anywhere close to reality, the fog lifts....  My Googling came up with articles stating the dogs of choice by drug dealers, white supremicists, gang members and other, serious bad guys are, to the surprise of few, fighting dogs--more specifically, pbs.
     
    I prefaced this post noting this board's choir won't be easily dissuaded.  My percentages will be off or what about the face transplant or what about that pack of Chihuahuas or, or, or....  I'm happy you all have exceptions to the rule....  There are plenty of incidents of 'exceptions' being left alone by the 'leaders of their packs' with children--those on the lower end of the totem pole--which led to disaster.  We may vehemently disagree about what should be done about the proliferation of fighting dogs but I pray nothing happens to any of you, personally, to prove my point. 
     
    Please, please, please, be careful!  Guns can be unloaded, rendering them harmless...a dog can't be unloaded and it only takes one incident to change lives--forever.  Advocate spaying/neutering....  If 93% is even CLOSE, it's clear we don't need to make any more...!  One article, a pro pb site, put it this way:  Even if you can find homes for the 8-15 puppies from your dog's litter, it just means another 8-15 dogs in shelters will die.... 
     
    OK...you can have your board back now...take care and have only the best of luck....
    • Gold Top Dog
    i would also like to point out that there are many pit bulls used for the service of people....

    1. [linkhttp://www.pitbulllovers.com/training-articles/therapy-dogs-pit-bulls.html]therapy dogs[/link]
    2. [linkhttp://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/popsicle.html]drug sniffing dogs[/link]
    3. [linkhttp://www.forpitssake.org/sar.html]search and rescue dogs[/link]

    these are just a few examples. i am sure there are others.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Did Betsy sneak in?????
     
    My Googling came up with articles stating the dogs of choice by drug dealers, white supremicists, gang members and other, serious bad guys are, to the surprise of few, fighting dogs--more specifically, pbs

     
    Really?!?!?
    When I look in the mirror I don't see any of those people looking back at me. Before I came to work here I was in HR, before that promotion I was an administrative manager and prior to that a dept. manager...all of those years I owned the breed commonly and respectfully known as the American Pit Bull Terrier as well as American Staffordshire Terriers.
     I've raised my children around these dogs and I am NOT your average one or two dog owner. I have never owned less then 5 at one time between my own dogs and rescues. My children have never been eated, attacked or even felt threatened by any of the dogs brought in my home. Why? Because the *True* breed is NOT human aggressive...animal aggressive, yes. Never human aggressive, those dogs should not have the pleasure to live if it is their temperament and any responsible, knowledgable owner/breeder will agree.
     
    Sorry, you won't change many minds here or even get support. Luckily the members of this forum own, love and admire the bully breeds.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    "those whose minds are closed can dispute or distort them to suit their predetermined stance" .... the same can be said from both sides of the fence.

    i would dare to say that a 50 lb (or bigger) dog of any breed could kill a person with one bite. i dont remember stating that chihuahuas could kill a person. can they do bodily harm to a person? yes. and more than just a sore finger. my wife's sister was bitten by a chihuahua and had to have 12 stitches. could it have killed her? no, i dont think so.

    "I ran across story after story of pbs being shot and killed by police officers" -- i would say this is a case of animal cruelty without any more information provided. there is no link to the story though.

    "My Googling came up with articles stating the dogs of choice by drug dealers, white supremicists, gang members and other, serious bad guys are, to the surprise of few, fighting dogs--more specifically, pbs." --- ok. so if all drug dealers owned shih tzus should we ban them and think they were a menace to society? again there is no link to an article, so i cant confirm your statement myself.

    "If 93% is even CLOSE, it's clear we don't need to make any more" -- i agree, and advocate that people should spay and neuter their pets. we have 2 cats and 2 dogs, all altered. will that solve the shelter problems in this country.. NO, but at least i am not contributing to the problem. the problem i have is when shelters bump pits to the front of the euthanasia line just because they are pits or they resemble something that looks like a pit.

    " OK...you can have your board back now...take care and have only the best of luck.... "--- thanks! [:D]


    • Gold Top Dog
    As I Googled the web (pit bull statistics) I ran across story after story of pbs being shot and killed by police officers (so much for the schutzhund theories). I suppose all police officers aren't the brightest bulbs but, it doesn't take too much time on the job to figure out what poses a risk to life and limb and what doesn't. Google till your keyboard breaks--you'll not discover an incident where a Chihuahua, or even a pack of 'em, was shot by the police.... Yes, this is a black and white comparison and, yes, there are some bad apples among generally more docile breeds out there....

     
    It doesn't surprise me that a chihuahua hasn't been shot by police. 
    This brings memories of the Ahmad du Dialo court case. Racial Profiling is wrong.
     
    Breed banning is wrong.  The law needs to better enforce laws in effect, and direct their actions against irresponsible owners/breeders, and stop killing thousands of INNOCENT DOGS!  This is a copout if I have ever seen one.  The easy way out of dealing with a situation that has gotten out of hand...  The ill training of animals.
     
    As I stated before, it makes me SICK to think that the law could/will state that RACE DETERMINES BEHAVIOR.  This cannot happen.  This will be leaps backwards for mankind. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    When I look in the mirror I don't see any of those people looking back at me.

     
    In response to your post. I am a public school teacher.  Yes, thats right, a SCHOOL TEACHER.
     
    Responsible?  I'd say yes.
    Drug dealer? Absolutely not.