"Cruelty by Breeders"

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji
I wonder why the CA bill didn't make it illegal to sell animals in a petstore. 

 
Under what legal theory?  Legally dogs are personal property.  By what right could legislation be passed saying that a store couldn't sell personal property?  A law might be able to be written that would require the pet store owner to meet so many humane standards that it became cost prohibitive to sell puppies, but other than that, it's restraint of trade.  Besides, PIJAC would certainly fight it, and it's likely that the AKC would too.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

If "I" really want to get somewhere? See, that's one of the problems - breeders seem to always want to push the problem off on someone else to solve,

Thanks but I am definitely NOT a breeder.  After I've been in the breed for another 5 or 10 years I might consider it though.  and the "YOU" was a collective "YOU" but you're playing at semantics now.  Take a survey of breeders that breed for conformation and for performance or working dogs, they'll tell you the same thing: they don't sell their dogs to millers.  In fact the majority of breeders won't sell a dog unless it's on a limited registration or a co-ownership.  But that's not fitting into your argument is it?

 
Actually, it fits rather nicely - thank you.  Please explain, given your statement above, why so many pet shop pedigrees include champions in the puppy's ancestry.  Now if you're only counting breeders that breed for both conformation and performance, then I don't know because I haven't seen indication of that on pedigrees - but I sure have seen conformation titles.

I actually think we both want the same thing; we want an end to the hundreds of thousands of dogs that are killed each year by the various governments.  Until you realize that our goals are the same, while you are busy ranting about breeders this and breeders that, nothing gets done. 

I learned a very long time ago that in order to get people to rally to a cause, you have to be inclusive and begin an active intelligent dialogue, lashing out at people and pointing fingers earns you no points and ends up hurting your cause more than helping.

 
Whether I rant or not, nothing is getting done.  In order to get people to rally to a cause, you have to convince them that there is a cause to rally to.  What I've run into is breeders that think that they are not part of a the problem, so they don't have to be part of the solutions.  Or, they would rather keep the status quo than take a chance of having their own "hobbies" affected by regulating breeders that are not as qualified as they are.  The only rallying I've seen is by breeders coming out to stop those who have solutions to the problem.

They also buy their product because responsible breeders turn down the average buyer for being unsuitable homes,

So you think that breeders don't know the requirements for responsible ownership of the breeds that they dedicate their lives to?  My, my.  I don't even know what to say.  You really have it out for breeders, don't you?   Sorry, but my experience as far as breeders denying ownership to individuals holds up.  And if most prospective owners looked at it from the breeder standpoint they'd understand as well. 
 
That's not what I said.  What I'm saying is that when a responsible breeder (rightfully) turns down a prospective buyer for being an unsuitable home, then that buyer goes to the next breeder or pet shop that WILL sell them a dog.   They will not go dogless.  I certainly don't think the RB should change their policies and sell to inappropriate/irresponsible homes, so the answer IMO is to require BYBs to breed and sell more responsibly - to come up to the level where the RB already is.

I'm a dog person.  I have no interest (beyond the humane factor) in cats.  All the cat education in the world isn't going to mean a thing to me.  I can scan a newspaper and the word "dog" leaps out at me, and I don't even notice the word "cat."

[sm=huh.gif]

Who was talking about cats?

I was making the point that if one is not interested in an issue, then one will not absorb the education offered on that issue.  You can give all the dog info available, but the person who isn't looking for a dog, isn't going to be educated - and if that same person walks by a pet shop window the next day and falls in love with a puppy - the education he didn't absorb won't do a bit of good.

The problem with education is that it costs a ton of money.  How great would it be to have TV commercials that SHOW the conditions those pet store pups are raised in?  But in order to stop the horror, well, someone is going to have to pony up big bucks. Who's going to do that?  Just having an excellent quality commercial produced, one that is really going to grab folks by the gonads and get them to pay attention, is going to cost major money.  Forget the ad schedule on a national level.  Billions.  McDonalds averages 6 million PER DAY in advertising and that's the kind of $$ its going to take to make a real impact.  And it's got to be done on a national level.  Networks are in business to make money....they have limited commercial inventory and aren't eager to give money away.  Sad economic fact.  And when you look at the huge number of networks to choose from and how splintered the viewing audience is, heck, it's like pi$$ing into the wind to try and make an impact.
 
On a smaller scale, yeah, you can get some freebies, but.......DH runs my Pet of the Week idea on two of his stations every Tuesday morning.  The Director of the local HS comes in with a critter, we feature that critter on our web site for the week and we talk with Mike about not just the animal he brings in, but about responsible pet ownership.  Our stations reach over 112,000 folks over the course of a week.  How many of those are hearing about those critters or hearing the message about them?  Don't know.  Hour by hour breakdowns are possible, but not terribly accurate when you take an area this geographically large and have a diary return of less than 500.
 
And guess what?  Even tho my heart is really into doing this and I knew that DH has a soft spot and WOULD run this segment, I'm still trying to sponsor the segment.  Because it makes economic sense to do so.  We all need to eat and pay our bills.
 
So while education is vitally important to changing the status qou, there has to be money to do so.  And, I don't see that kind of money just laying around waiting to be spent.  Not in todays economy.
 
However, there does need to be a way to shut down the mills and BYB's.  I'm just not sure that the law you are advocating is going to make so much as a ripple in that pond.

ORIGINAL: Shadomoon
This is so true.  However, when I went to look for information about neutering on Yahoo/Google, I got 50+ saying it was bad, 10 saying it was good.  The problem is, no one knows.  Too many theories, not enough facts.  But early spay/neuter IS harmful and causing development problems in MOST breeds.  However this doesnt mean it happens to every dog.  This is why the one bill is being changed a lot since almost NO vet supports spay/neuter before 6 months of age.  Those that do need to relearn their education in their field.  I use to want to be a vet and I have vet ed. books.  All say it is harmful before 6 months of age.  But again, more theories and opinions than facts.  But this changes the topic. 

 
If that were true, then why does the AVMA endorse early spay/neuter?  If almost no vet supports early s/n, why is it that the shelters here have been doing it for years?  Early spay/neuter is common here.  I've been having it done for about 15 years and have seen no ill effects.  I think it's interesting that the people who fight early spay/neuter never say a thing about all the shelter animals that are spayed or neutered at that age.

ORIGINAL: Shadomoon
DogAdvocat - To prove one more point, at all the major dog shows (Cleveland, Harrisburg, etc) there are announcements about spay/neutering, local rescues, STAR dogs, the major Golden rescue brings their dogs up and adopted dogs up, meet the breeds, seminars, etc.  Cleveland is big for having rescued dogs featured in pictures and having rescue groups there.  This makes me believe you havent attended a dog show at all because these people were never chased away, nor were they given a bad rep.  Or maybe you were a dog show but you tried to pull this "crap" about no good breeders...  That would get you kicked out...  But at a lot of shows, there are shelters/rescues featured.  Why did you get such negative reviews?

 
I stated what I experienced, and I think I described it clearly in several posts.  If my veracity is going to be questioned, then why should your veracity not also be questioned because you've apparently experienced something different than I have?  I've been to the Beverly Hills Kennel Club show, the Santa Barbara show - several times each.  And I've been to shows more local to me.  I've already stated that I like to go to the shows for the concession stands, for dog supplies.  I have only tried setting up an adoption booth once - and once was more than enough.  But in the other shows I've been to, I never saw any other rescue booths set up, nor any rescue information given. 
 
As far as why I got negative reviews - I once was privvy to a letter from a Saluki club that was sent to their members that was very negative about rescue, and their reason was that they felt that rescue was taking up the homes that breeders could be selling their puppies to.  The logic is reasonable if you consider that an RB might feel that there is no place in this world for badly bred dogs, so simce most rescue dogs come from BYBs and puppymills, then they would rather those dogs just disappear and all dogs be RB dogs.  Of course this kind of logic sure doesn't take into account that the BYB/PM dogs that are already here deserve love too.

REgarding AVMA endorsement of early spay neuter
Because a paradym shift takes time and there is considerable resistance.... case in point,,, vaccinations.  We used to believe vaccination yearly was the only way to keep pets healthy,,,, we now know different.  To error on the side of caution is not necessarily a bad thing. 

me being the devil's advocate:  how is mandatory spay neuter not the same type of restriction and regulation of personal property?

Regarding millers with CHs in pedigrees.
 
Because millers lie and use agents who go through the purchase process and then sell the dog again (in conflict with the contract).  I am aware of one situation in which this occurred and the puppy purchaser contacted the breeder and reported the puppy was dead.
I know of individuals and clubs who have spent years and thousands to enforce a contract, get a dog back or buy up a breeding population.  And with a court order find that same miller back in business despite the settlement that was developed.

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat

If that were true, then why does the AVMA endorse early spay/neuter?  If almost no vet supports early s/n, why is it that the shelters here have been doing it for years?  Early spay/neuter is common here.  I've been having it done for about 15 years and have seen no ill effects.  I think it's interesting that the people who fight early spay/neuter never say a thing about all the shelter animals that are spayed or neutered at that age.

 
Have you ever read a vet class book?  Have you ever taken a class focused on the dog body and the effects of surgeries?  No?  Then please get some things straight here. 
 
Why does AVMA endorse early spay/neuter?  Because it cuts cost on the surgery if the dog is younger AND it helps stop overpopulation.  My mutt was neutered before he was 3 months old.  He now has muscle problems, problems breaking down proteins, and other issues.  All this is linked to the early neutering...  How?  Because the muscle problems are due to lack of development in the pelvis area.  The protein breakdown was due to an allergy to the anesthesia, which most people do not take into account.  These were came about by three different vets.  You may not see problems, but that doesnt mean they are not there. 
 
As to the Ch. in pedigrees...  Do you know how old a certain breed is?  They ALL start with the same dogs, and if you got back to the first few, they will have titles.  Looking at pedigrees, breeders can tell the difference between the Puppymills/BYB and the good breeders just but names... Can you?  (also, puppymills have been known to write "CH." as a kennel name to give the appearance of champions.)  If you know puppymills, why didnt you know this?
 
If you cant stand breeders, why go to shows?  You can order stuff online you know?  Find your local feed store, I bet they have stuff....  Or go to a performance show instead of one filled with "sensless breeders."  I mean, I see rescue things going on at shows all the time, no one ever complained.  Hell, in UKC you can show mutts in juniors.  They have BIG rescue things there.  So again, why did you get negative reviews?  I told people at the humane society I breed dogs, and even the ones against breeding dont "kick me out" or do anything like that.  In fact, most are really nice people and we all know we share different opinions.  Nothing negative.
 
Oh and believe me, I am all for mandatory spay/neuter of mix breeds, pets, shelter dogs, etc.  But I am not for people telling GOOD breeders what they should do.  If you compete with your dog, adhere to set standards, and are working to improve your breed, you shouldnt need a mandatory spay/neuter, NOR having to pay for a permit to do this.  You spend enough money each year on taking care, training, and entering your dogs, you dont deserve to be treated like a common puppymiller.
 
Just my 2 cents worth anyway. 

Why shut down the BYBs? There's no reason to shut them down, all that's needed is to bring them into compliance with the same procedures that responsible breeders already do.

Oh my you missed the big "IF" at the beginning of the sentence.

IMO it's a combination of BYBs and those like a poster in another thread on this forum that don't want to spay/neuter their dogs.  How many of us have seen threads on this forum that ask "what breed is he/she?"  That's the primary cause of the over population.  People that are unwilling to speuter their animals-end users that is. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji
I wonder why the CA bill didn't make it illegal to sell animals in a petstore.


Under what legal theory? Legally dogs are personal property. By what right could legislation be passed saying that a store couldn't sell personal property? A law might be able to be written that would require the pet store owner to meet so many humane standards that it became cost prohibitive to sell puppies, but other than that, it's restraint of trade. 

 
Okay, if dogs are personal property and you can't legislate them NOT being sold at a petstore why can you lesgislate them being spayed/neutered?

Why shut down the BYBs? There's no reason to shut them down, all that's needed is to bring them into compliance with the same procedures that responsible breeders already do. For instance, if there were a requirement that dogs have health screenings before being bred, then BYBs would have to do it.

While this may be good in theory it would be impossible to implement.  Every breed has different issues.  You would have to write different screening criteria for each breed and then you have to try to find a consensus within the breed. Breeders now can't even come to a complete consensus as to all the tests required.  They agree on a common core but after that there are many opinions and some of those opinions are formed by the unique circumstances of their breed lines.  Here is a perfect example.  VWD (bleeding disorder) can affect some breeds.  There is a test for that condition but it is not necessary if the parents of the dog in question have been tested clear.  That clearance can be traced back thru pedigrees.  So if my dogs parents are both VWD clear either by test or by their parentage there is no need to perform that test.
 
--- Edited for spelling ---

What possible sense does it make to try to educate 12 puppy buyers instead of regulating 1 breeder that would sell to them?

 
The same reason that you educate the public against the misuse of drugs and alcohol. Education wins over prohibition. If people quit buying from mills and byb's, they go out of business, just like icehouses have largely gone by the wayside since many refigerators have an icemaker. When the market demand is gone, so is the industry. A good owner negates the need for a breeder to take back a dog. Sometimes, a good owner doesn't always stay the same. They may have been earnest at the start, well enough to pass a breeder's interview, and actually meant what they said. Some years down the road, they changed. So, penalizing the breeder doesn't accomplish anything. A dog breeder doesn't necessarily have the powers of Johnny in "The Dead Zone." But I have seen my share of questionable breeders who bred without enough owners lined up, if at all. And they are at the Home Depot parking lot selling their animals to whomever. Technically, they could be fined for vending without a license. But the police are busy trying to control the meth problem. It's funny how the byb's do it on the weekends during the mobile adoption from the local shelter. You can buy a pup from a pick-up with no health tests for $200 or $300 or walk over to the mobile kennel and get a pup with general health check, first shots, adoption, and spay/neuter at an area supporting vet for the grand total of $44.
 
I haven't had to purchase a pet, yet. They're everywhere, just walk out the door. In my town, there are no curbs. So an attempt to operate a curb painting business would be an abject failure. If the demand is not there, neither is the industry. And that takes education. Good breeders are doing their part but they can't stop a determined buyer from going somewhere else less reputable. Education and a change of mind can stop that, though.

They also buy their product because responsible breeders turn down the average buyer for being unsuitable homes

 
So, first, breeders aren't stringent enough, and now they are too tight to allow "average" owners to buy? Education does work but not enough people are educated. Example, I've been getting stellar obedience from Shadow when we are in public. I've had a few people be amazed. I mention the clicker training and reward what you want, don't reward what you don't want. One lady said she heard of the clicker thing, much the same way I can say I've heard of Tashkent, Russia. With another, she was amazed at the concept of reward only what you want. A lightbulb went on in her head. And these are people who own dogs already. And were uneducated. When I first got Shadow, in spite of having been around dogs before in my life, I was ignorant of a lot. Education changed that.

But, if your (generic) goal was to stop smoking for health reasons, then what do you do about the hard-core smokers who have heard all the education and still won't quit? I know people that still break off the filters of the cigarettes before smoking them.

 
You're talking about an addiction. IMHO, a different ball of wax. I've heard from some addicts in interviews that it was easier to kick heroin than cigarettes, partly because cigarettes are still legal.
 
That being said, it amounts to a sense of personal responsibility. Amongst owners as much as breeders. Though I do agree that any breeder should provide health certs. But how do we enforce that? Would you pay 20 cents a gallon more for gas to provide a state income to regulate and police breeders and have a response team anytime some is found selling dogs at the Home Depot parking lot without health certs? Otherwise, they'll just cross the highway to the Lowe's parking lot.