"Cruelty by Breeders"

A few of use were talking the other day at the dog park and the subject of "responsible breeders" came up. Since about 90% of the dogs at the dog park are rescues, the majority  of us agreed that there really are no "responsible breeders" today.   Millions of dogs are  being executed every year in just the United States, because of a lack of finding a home and yet people are deliberately  breeding more dogs to make money?  One person said that it  would be like going to a country that has a massive over population problem, coupled with insufficent food and medical care, and encouraging people to have more kids......   

 Since about 90% of the dogs at the dog park are rescues, the majority  of us agreed that there really are no "responsible breeders" today.   Millions of dogs are  being executed every year in just the United States, because of a lack of finding a home and yet people are deliberately  breeding more dogs to make money?

 
Sorry Bobsk8, but that's just bull.
 
There ARE responsible breeders.  Not every breeder out there is breeding for money.  I know several people who breed for love of the breed and to produce exceptional animals

ORIGINAL: Xeph

 Since about 90% of the dogs at the dog park are rescues, the majority  of us agreed that there really are no "responsible breeders" today.   Millions of dogs are  being executed every year in just the United States, because of a lack of finding a home and yet people are deliberately  breeding more dogs to make money?

Sorry Bobsk8, but that's just bull.

There ARE responsible breeders.  Not every breeder out there is breeding for money.  I know several people who breed for love of the breed and to produce exceptional animals

If you are bringing more dogs into an environment that is already way overloaded with homeless dogs, is that being "responsible" ?  

Oh  I see,,,, like Dess's breeder who donates the cost of a puppy to rescue for each litter produced... lets see that is 7 litters in 32 years.  The breeder who has the dew claws of every puppy produced so she can do DNA tracking of inherited diseases, and does all health tests, doesnt breed until after 3 years old, corresponds will all puppy buyers and knows the death date of all but one puppy she has produced....Oh yeah  you are right there are only irresponsible breeders.... and I haven't even started a list for Nora's breeders who have been training other folks for better than 30 years as well as screening extensively and retrieving any puppy poorly placed... 

If you are bringing more dogs into an environment that is already way overloaded with homeless dogs,

 
Not everyone wants a dog from a shelter.  Should people be required to take a dog from there???
 

I agree with Bob that there are way to many homeless dogs in this country.  Not only are there pounds, shelters of any breed, etc, but also resuces for almost all, if not all, pure breed dogs.  I support 3 different golden retriever rescues, plus a couple of all breed shelters.
 
However, if you have a pair of unrelated dogs that are top quail dogs, then it makes sense to breed them (provided they pass all the physical tests) to keep produce more terrific hunters.  Good gun dogs are always in demand.  The same goes with duck retrieving dogs, herding dogs, etc.  You get some that are very good at what they wre bred for and it makes sense to produce puppies of that high quality.
 
It is unreal the excuses some give for turning their dogs into resuces and shelters.  Some want a puppy and dump the old dog they have had 10 years off at the shelter or rescue.  That is SICK.  Some do not research and just like the looks of a dog, but doesn't known border collies like to herd, even if it is kids, goldens like to dig, bull dogs snort and drool some, the maltese does not have a coat like the one in the dog show--except by constant care and grooming.  They get these dogs and then are dissapointed and dump them...and often times try another breed.  WRONG. so WRONG

I do not have a problem with people who want a pure bred dog to know it's background.

You honeslty never know what you will get at a shelter. I , myself, wont ever purchase a dog from a breeder but I dont hold it against those who do.

Some people want a GUARENTEE that they will have a healthy/sound dog. I dont blame them one bit.

"different strokes for different folks" as the saying goes

I do feel that responsible breeders should be involved in rescue of their breed.
 
ETA-There are NO excuses for puppy mills though. I hope they all get shut down and the owners of these places get slapped with thousands of dollars in fines.

If you are bringing more dogs into an environment that is already way overloaded with homeless dogs, is that being "responsible" ?

Well, my breeder takes back any of her dogs that do not work out in their homes, hence why I'm getting my dog.  She was returned because of an accident that left her fearful of her owner.  If I decided not to take her, she'd live with her breeder forever.  I do not consider a breeder ethical unless they include a spay/neuter contract AND a contract that the animal must be returned to them if it cannot be kept.  Ethical breeders take responsibility for the animals they've bred.

I totally understand what Bobsk8 is saying though.   There are not just a few breeders...there are tons of them having more and more babies.   NOT counting the BYBs.   Sure there are a lot of breeders that are more responsible for their breed...but they are still tons of them that are having litters while having no one to take their pups.  When I got Bubblegum for instance... in their small home was her, her brother and her father. Then there was what was left of her 18 babies and at least 4 older pups from another litter.  I got her because my son who knows the husband of the breeder said "if you ever want a GOOD Great Dane that you can afford,,,now is the time because they are overwhelmed with dogs in their home!"  She breeds and shows..so yes she is striving for the perfect Dane both health and show material, and has for years,  so this makes her a responsible breeder!   Yes???    I thought repsonsible breeders had buyers for their pups before breeding them.  
I have a friend who got involved with GSDs.. a good line and she just bred the Mom two heats in a row. When I questioned her she said that she has many people helping her and giving her advise..is involved with the Kennel Club in her city between agility and whatever she does there.  I can't see this as being a responsible breeder.
A responsible breeder will take back their pup if anything goes wrong. But will it REALLY live in their home for the rest of its life or do they just say that? They cannot have dogs running around their home to feed and pay for health care just because they can not sell them...and yet their business is having more litters and they must have the room for them and the money to take care of them.    I DO see what Bobsk8 is saying. 
Yet I also don't deny the person that wants a pure bred dog...or doesn't want to get a dog from a shelter....its just that I do believe that many of these pure breds end up in a shelter after being handed down from breeder to one owner after another.
I think its a sticky subject and can agree with both sides on this.

*is ready to get slammed for this*

There are no good breeders left huh?  Really?  None?  Wow, what a horrible world then.  I must be living a lie being a good breeder and all... 

Here are my questions.  To make you a GOOD pet owner, lets see what you do:

1. What food do you feed?
2. What style training does your dog have?
3. How big is your yard?
4. What type of dog do you have?
5. Have you had your dogs eyes CERFed and Hips OFAed?
6. Have you gone and titled a dog?
7. Do you know what a title is?
8. Where does your dog sleep at night?
9. Do you know the major health concerns that are with your breed(s)?
10. Do you have a crate and is your dog crate trained?
11.  Where does your dog stay when you go on vacation?
12. Do you work?
13. Where is your dog when you are at work?
14. How many teeth does a dog have?
15. Does your dog have all their teeth?
16. How much does your dog weigh?
17. Is your dog over or under weight?
18. Would you know if they were?
19. Can you tell the difference in different types of aggression?
20. How many dogs do you have?
21. Have you ever met or talked to a breeder?
22. Have you ever gone to a dog show?
23. Ever gone to an agility/obedience show?
24. Do you know what conformation, agility, rally, obedience is?
25. Can you honestly sit there and tell me there arent good breeders in the world?
26. Have you ever fostered a rescue?
27. Have you ever volunteered at a shelter?
28. Have you ever donated to a shelter?
29. Have you ever donated to a breed club?
30. Do you know the difference between a BYB and puppymill?
31. Can you groom your own dog?
32. Do you know what type of brushes to use?
33. Do you know how to cut nails?
34. Can you trim your dog yourself?

Okay...  My answers:
1. Solid Gold/Innova
2. I use basic training, no clicker.  I use choke chains and without leashes.
3. I have less than an acre
4. Aussies and a rescued Mutt
5. Yes.  All have CERFs, not all can have hips done at the time.
6. Yes.  I have dogs pted in AKC, finished dogs in UKC.  I have titled therepy dogs, CGCs, and RN.  I also have a dog with two U-CD legs.
7. yep!
8. two sleep in my room with free run, the rest sleep in crates
9. Yes, and I know the sites dedicated to these health issues.
10. Yes.
11. Vacation?  I dont have one of those.  I stay home and take care of the dogs.
12. Not right now.
13. If I was gone, in a crate.
14.  42 (bet you didnt know that)
15. Yep
16. depends on the dog.  Mutt is 52 lbs, aussies range from 30-65 lbs
17. Nope
18. Yeah.
19. Yes, I trained dogs with aggression problems.
20. 6 dogs
21. All the time
22. All the time
23. All the time (see a pattern here)
24. Yep, I compete in them all.
25. Nope.  I know tons.
26. Yes
27. Yes
28. Yes
29. Yes
30. Yes.
31. Yes
32. Yes
33. Yes
34. Yes

Now...  Bash me all you like.  I bet my dogs are better groomed, better cared for, better trained, and in better health..  Point being that most pet owners are very ignorant on the whole pet care thing.  Then again, I bet they feel they dont need to be knowledgeable.  Considering there arent any good breeders... 

Then again, you have people like PETA letting dogs loose and saying that dogs cannot be caged by fences, humans, or crates...  So...  I think I will stick with my good breeders instead of the so called animal activists that have never done any great thing with one of their dogs in their entire lifetime.

I own a rescue dog, I am a member of my humane society.  I do all health testing, I actually DO things with my dogs.  I breed a litter or two a year (if that) and I sell to RESPECTABLE people.  I sell pets on spay/neuter and in NO way do I make money from selling dogs.  I take back any pups that cant be kept and I find them new homes.  If you keep all the dogs you breed or take in, you wouldnt be a good breeder or good pet owner.  Get the whole "Placing a dog is bad thing" out of your head.  I screen puppy buyers and do a lot more than your average shelter.  50% or more of pits in shelters are adopted out to dog fighters...  I wonder why?

Is bringing more dogs into this world good?  Well I will tell you.  I am protecting my breed.  I am breeding for the better of my breed, and for the better of the future of it.  I am not breeding for me or for pet buyers.  Sure, we need to rescue and sure there are dogs that need to be placed.  But here is the problem.  Follow me here... 

Dogs being bred are not the problem.  GOOD breeders arent the problem.  Your problem lies with irresponsible pet owners.  Those types that dont know what they are doing...  The buy a pup from a pet store and breed it to another dog or... leave it out and it gets bred.  Those people that get a dog and then realize they cant handle it.  Those people that feed their dog junk, keep them tied outside, and let them do whatever they want when they are still intact.  Those people that let their intact dogs roam the streets and get pregnant.  Puppymills are problems, byb are problems, but bad pet owners are the worst.  GOOD breeders didnt cause overpopulation.  I am not selling a dog to Jo NoBody, I am selling a dog to Sue Somebody that I will be keeping in touch with for years and if that dog I sold is ever not wanted, I will take it back.  You wont find MY dog in a shelter. 

So, stop pointing fingers.  Bob Barker even admitted to having good breeder AND he bought a dog from a breeder.  This "breeder are bad" thing is getting old.

Bash me at all ends, but try to find one TRUTHFUL reason I should believe in bad breeders.  Not an opinion, not a myth, but a fact.  I havent found one yet. 

For the record I respect everyone's opinion and I will never openly attack anyone.  I am stating my OWN opinion with some questions to help YOU evaluate yourself.  If you feel the need to bash me, take your pieces.  I am usually a very nice person and I am a pet owner (owned by her dogs).  I am sorry if I am rude, but I am tired of this.  I dont believe in animal activists, nor do I believe that all breeders are bad.  Please dont think I am pointing fingers at anyone and saying anyone is a bad pet owner.  I am saying what I have found to be fact.  But...  most of eople dont really care when they want to flame.

Take care.

Pat 

Very well said Pat!
 
It's not the good, responsible breeders that are responsible for pet overpopulation. They have undertaken the monumental task of preserving their chosen breed(s), and inproving the breed with each generation. If there wern't responsible breeders, we wouldn't have all the unique breeds we have today.
 
Someone posted that not everyone wants a dog from a shelter. And thats absolutely true. Some people want to know exactly how big their dog is going to get, what kind of coat it will have, what kind of temperment it is predisposed to having, what health problems lie in the lines, and want to know if every measure has been taken to prevent them from popping up.
 
You can't wipe out breeders entirely. And why would you want to? Leave the  responsible breeders who breed  for the betterment of the breed alone, and focus on eraticating puppy mills.
 
For the record, I have two purebred dogs- a Golden Retriever and an Aussie. I don't breed... and if I ever do, it won't be for a long long time. It would be quite a trick if I did so now, seeing as both of my dogs are boys! []
 
~Jackie

ORIGINAL: mrv

Oh  I see,,,, like Dess's breeder who donates the cost of a puppy to rescue for each litter produced... lets see that is 7 litters in 32 years.  The breeder who has the dew claws of every puppy produced so she can do DNA tracking of inherited diseases, and does all health tests, doesnt breed until after 3 years old, corresponds will all puppy buyers and knows the death date of all but one puppy she has produced....Oh yeah  you are right there are only irresponsible breeders.... and I haven't even started a list for Nora's breeders who have been training other folks for better than 30 years as well as screening extensively and retrieving any puppy poorly placed... 

 
Seven litters?  What do they sell for?  Maybe $1000 a piece?  That's $7000 in 32 years?  I spend more than that on rescue in one year.  There are few shepherd rescues here, and the ones we have are totally overwhelmed.  Dedication to the breed shouldn't be just about producing more, it should be about taking care of the ones that are already here.

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

I agree with Bob that there are way to many homeless dogs in this country.  Not only are there pounds, shelters of any breed, etc, but also resuces for almost all, if not all, pure breed dogs.  I support 3 different golden retriever rescues, plus a couple of all breed shelters.

However, if you have a pair of unrelated dogs that are top quail dogs, then it makes sense to breed them (provided they pass all the physical tests) to keep produce more terrific hunters.  Good gun dogs are always in demand.  The same goes with duck retrieving dogs, herding dogs, etc.  You get some that are very good at what they wre bred for and it makes sense to produce puppies of that high quality.

It is unreal the excuses some give for turning their dogs into resuces and shelters.  Some want a puppy and dump the old dog they have had 10 years off at the shelter or rescue.  That is SICK.  Some do not research and just like the looks of a dog, but doesn't known border collies like to herd, even if it is kids, goldens like to dig, bull dogs snort and drool some, the maltese does not have a coat like the one in the dog show--except by constant care and grooming.  They get these dogs and then are dissapointed and dump them...and often times try another breed.  WRONG. so WRONG

 
I appeciate your dedication to rescue - that's great !!  But when you talk about breeding dogs to meet a demand (which I've heard countless breeders say that responsible breeders don't do), and to be a tool for human use (hunting dogs), then how does that differ from anyone else's desired "use" of dogs?  How many hunting dogs are dumped in shelters at the end of the hunting season, or are discarded when they can no longer serve their purpose?  I've talked to rescues in states where hunting is more prolific, and have been told that typical hunting dogs are much more prevalent in the shelters than typical companion dogs (and yes, I know hunting dogs are companions too). 

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat

ORIGINAL: mrv

Oh  I see,,,, like Dess's breeder who donates the cost of a puppy to rescue for each litter produced... lets see that is 7 litters in 32 years.  The breeder who has the dew claws of every puppy produced so she can do DNA tracking of inherited diseases, and does all health tests, doesnt breed until after 3 years old, corresponds will all puppy buyers and knows the death date of all but one puppy she has produced....Oh yeah  you are right there are only irresponsible breeders.... and I haven't even started a list for Nora's breeders who have been training other folks for better than 30 years as well as screening extensively and retrieving any puppy poorly placed... 

Seven litters?  What do they sell for?  Maybe $1000 a piece?  That's $7000 in 32 years?  I spend more than that on rescue in one year.  There are few shepherd rescues here, and the ones we have are totally overwhelmed.  Dedication to the breed shouldn't be just about producing more, it should be about taking care of the ones that are already here.

 
How much money to you think they put out over those 32 years, Dog? Do you know how much it costs to enter dog shows? How much equipment costs? A vehicle? Gasoline to travel to shows? Training classes? Health evaluations?
 
Most show breeders are lucky to break even on a litter. If you would like proof, I will be glad to copy and paste an example litter here for you.
 
The only "breeders" that make money are the ones who sell their puppies in the paper for $300. They don't health test, show, or put out any kind of money  on their adults, so  there is no overhead for them to earn back.