"Cruelty by Breeders"

    • Gold Top Dog
    deleted
    • Silver
    Shadomoon: Maybe if you said we were both blinded by our own opinions, I might see it as less of an insult, and though I'm really not insulted, I do think your comment is unfair.
     
    I'm surprised my view on a responsible breeder isn't clear by now.  But it also seems rather telling that you have yet to define what you think of as responsible breeding, and yet now ask me to define it.  I do believe in responsible breeding, but I think part of being a responsible breeder is being aware of the shelter problem, and doing whatever it takes to be part of the solution.  I do not believe that education is the only solution, but it is definitely one of them.  I think a responsible breeder should not have tunnel vision that would lead her to only be concerned about what she (or he) is breeding, but should also be concerned with the general state of dogs in this country (which includes shelter dogs.  I've met many breeders, who are now doing rescue, and have stopped breeding until the state of dogs has improved, meaning dogs in general and their own breed in specific, is no longer dying in shelters for lack of homes.  I respect that.
     
    However, as to the breeding itself, I believe that responsible breeding starts out by the novice breeder being mentored by a responsible breeder.  I believe that to be responsible, one's goal is to preserve and improve their chosen breed.  I believe that it is irresponsible to breed without lifelong homes committed to caring for the pending puppies, and those buyers should be thoroughly screened, along with homechecks.  I also believe that the parent dogs should have lifelong homes, and that they should be part of the breeders family, or at least the mother should be, and the father should be treated equally within his own home.  I believe that in order to breed responsibly, one has to have gotten their foundation dogs from a responsible breeder.  I believe that before the dogs are bred, they both need to have had all available health screenings and should have been proven to be worthy of reproducing by earning championships in the show ring, and by earning titles in obedience.  For dogs not accepted yet by the AKC, they should earn whatever titles are available to them, and should be independently judged on conformation to their breed standard.
     
    Once the breeding has taken place, I believe that it's essential for responsible breeding to include socialization of the puppies inside with the breeder's family.  I believe that if there are any problems with the birthing process, that the breeder will do all necessary to make decisions based on what's good for the dogs, not just what's good for the breeders bank account.  And if any of the puppies become unsellable due to birth defects, or improper coloring - or whatever, the breeder will commit to keeping that dog as their own pet.  I believe that responsible breeding includes not releasing puppies to their new homes until they are 8-12 weeks of age, and preferably the latter.  I believe that the responsible breeder has a written contract with the new owners that includes the care the puppy will recieve, a health guarantee that covers long enough time to ascertain whether the dog has congenital diseases like CHD, and also offers a lifetime return policy - preferably with a stiff penalty if the owner gives/sells the dog to any other party.  I also believe that part of responsible breeding is to do everything possible (including early/spay neuter) to make sure that the puppy is not bred irresponsibly.  I believe that part of responsible breeding is to keep close contact with the puppy after sale to make sure it's being properly cared for and to monitor it for diseases that might indicate that an adjustment in the breeding program needs to be done. 
     
    I don't think (though will admit to not knowing enough about this to be sure) that a single dog should have more than 2 litters and they shouldn't be back-to-back.  If the breeder is trying to improve the breed, then continually breeding the same dog isn't really doing that.  The breeder should move on and breed the best of the litter she's already produced - thereby actually improving.  Having more than 2 litters, IMO, is simply a risk to the mother's health, including a higher risk for reproductive cancers and pyometra.
     
    And finally, a responsible breeder adheres to, and surpasses, her breed club's code of ethics.  She NEVER sells her dogs through a third party, like a pet shop.  And because she cares about dogs, and specifically her breed, she becomes an animal activist and tries to improve the world of dogs and tries to bring other breeders up to her level of breeding ethics, even if that means supporting laws that would mandate others be as responsible as she.  And because she is dedicated to her breed, she does what's necessary to support the breed rescue for her breed.
     
    What a responsible breeder does NOT do is fight against those that are trying to make things better for dogs.  And a resposible breeder certainly doesn't fight proposed laws and then sit back and fail to propose alternative laws.  A responsible breeder recognizes that it's not only important to improve the breed, but also to improve the living conditions of the dogs within that breed. 
     
    Now because I don't breed, and never have/never will, those are the things that I've learned from those breeders educating on responsible breeding.  I'm sure there's lots more that can be added, but I think if I found a breeder that adheres to all that, I'd consider recommending them to those who insist on buying a puppy.  Unfortunately what I have run into is a lot of breeders that talk a good game, but when push comes to shove, there are always excuses why they couldn't adhere to that criteria -- like the ones that refused to take their dog back because of one reason or another.
     
    You say I've shown that I don't want to learn anything, but I think I've learned a lot from breeders, both good and bad.  When most of the breeders out there are not responsible, how can you expect me to not have my view of breeders colored by that fact?  You are just as closed-minded about animal activists, to the point where you apparently refuse to even accept a more logical definition of the term.  And then to define them as even lacking hobbies is just plain prejudice.
     
    An activist is someone who is active in a cause.  An animal activist is someone active in improving life for the animals.  Rescue workers are animal activists.  What you abhor is "animal rights activists" and want to paint all animal activism with AR brush.  And even that has blurry lines, because there are rescue workers who are only interested in saving lives and humane treatment of dogs, and there are rescue workers who believe that dogs should have the legal right to proper care and humane treatment.  And just because someone rescues dogs, don't mean they can't have compassion for all animals, including the human animal.  I know a lot of animal activists who are also involved in activism regarding abused children, homeless people, etc. 
     
    You say you never see animal activists at dog shows (assumably not counting the Peta members you believe to be rampantly overrunning dog shows) -- maybe the reason you aren't seeing them is that they aren't allowed to be there.  As previously described, the one time I tried to set up an educational booth that included information about adoption, I was ostracized, and it was clear that rescue wasn't wanted in that venue.  You say you don't see animal activists at shows - why aren't the breed rescues setting up booths at dog shows, showcasing their available dogs?  I've certainly never seen that at any dog show I've been to. 
     
    You say that people know the names of Pat Hastings and George Alston and other show people -- but doesn't it make sense that you know them because you are in that insular world?  Those people don't pertain to anything I'm interested in.  They aren't going to help me be a better rescuer.  On the other hand, are you familiar with animal activists like Robin Presnall and Michelle Rivera?  Robin has one of the largest and most active rescues in the country, and her activism includes extensive education on puppymills and closing down puppymills.  Michelle is an animal writer that has written at least 3 books on therapy dogs and dogs in the classroom.  She runs a program whereby incarcerated women train shelter dogs.  She also is active in a program that offers protection to pets whose owners are involved in domestic violence.  She has helped to educate police officers on "first strike" programs to not only stop animal abuse, but also to identify those people who would move their violence towards animals on to abusing people.  She proposed a law in her state that would require people to stop and lend assistance to animals they had hit with their cars instead of just driving away, and that law passed.  She does therapy work with her own dog.  She is an animal activist, and is even a vegan, and a member of the Dog Writers Association of America.  Her compassion stretches to all animals, including humans.  She even has time for hobbies .  And she is involved with cat rescue. 
     
    They are both wonderful ladies, and dedicated animal activists.
     
    Now you ask that I find you an animal activist that is knowlegeable in breeding, competition, performance, training, etc. etc.  I think that the burden is on you to show that people knowledgeable about all that (because they are breeders) are also animal activists.  If you can't think of anyone, then maybe the question is, why aren't breeders also animal activists?  Why aren't they working for the animals?  I'm not saying they aren't, but apparently you are claiming that since you need me to show you one.
    • Gold Top Dog
    There is some new research that suggests back to back breedings earlier in the dog's life may be a better idea (if adequatedly supported by nutrition and medical care as needed).  This is due to the fact each heat cycle has a progestrine flush that actually degrades the tissue of the uterine horns (I attended a breeding seminar by a nationally respected vet who specializes in reproduction).  He also recommends spaying as soon as possible after the last litter to prevent pyometritis which is another potential outcome due to the impact of progestrine on uterine tissue. 

    Actually we are not far apart on what responsible breeding entails.  We just dont agree on the effectiveness of different types of legislation to address the issue of over population.   And your descriptors match the breeders I have purchased from (my belgians).
    • Puppy
    Mrv, I have looked thru those studies.  That is why most breeders I know are now doing back to back breedings on maiden bitches.  Hutchinson talked about this in great detail at one of his seminars.
     
    As for DogAdvocat.  I agree these posts are getting too long and are saying the same things.  As I said, I am looking at both sides.  I am not trying to insult you.  If I wanted to, I would have.  Believe me on that one.
     
    NO responsible breeder will support irrational bills like the CA bill.  Few supported Paws, which was, in comparision, a lot better.  Resonsible breeders have tried to get amendments for the bill, not get rid of it entirely. 
     
    I have changed my views of people, but the sterotype will still stand.  When you have bad experiences with people like Peta that say they are Animal Activists it makes people close minded.  I assume that is why you seem close minded about breeders.  I understand it, but I dont agree.
     
    I knew Pat Hastings way before I got into purebred dogs.  Pat Hastings had writings that were bookcased in the shelter I got my mutt from. 
     
    I also did send you names of people to contact that are breeders and animal activists.  They are "responsible" breeders (in my eyes anyway).  Have you contacted them?
     
    I have to say, I have learned a lot in these few posts, but there is something I already know.  No one will change their opinion freely.  With that I agree, that we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that because I find no reason to make enemies over situations that we both care about our animals and animals in general, just we view it all differently.
     
    Good luck.
    • Gold Top Dog
    There is some new research that suggests back to back breedings earlier in the dog's life may be a better idea (if adequatedly supported by nutrition and medical care as needed). This is due to the fact each heat cycle has a progestrine flush that actually degrades the tissue of the uterine horns (I attended a breeding seminar by a nationally respected vet who specializes in reproduction). He also recommends spaying as soon as possible after the last litter to prevent pyometritis which is another potential outcome due to the impact of progestrine on uterine tissue.

     
    I have heard this information before.  There are some well known breeders and repro vets that have been stating this for a while now.
     
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: nymaureen

     

    Look at the community of dogs with low litter registrations:  Harriers, Salukis, Otterhounds, Pharaoh Hounds, Deerhounds, IWs, Ibizans....the list goes on.  There's a reason there are low litter registrations and it's not because there are "no responsible breeders."  It's because there are responsible breeders out there. 

    Yes, they're out there.  You just need to look for them.  And then when you find them you'll also find some of the best loved dogs and the happiest owners in those lines as well.



    There are obvioulsy some irresponsible Pharaoh Hound Breeders out there. I've already seen one of those dogs up on Petfinder in my local area. And I've also seen a poster board posted on a road sign, not far from my house, offering pharaoh puppies for sale. Most people don't even know what the breed is and already we are seeing them for sale posted on the side of the road.



    If you've seen any of that, get the info to me.  I'll fwd it on to the rescue committee. 

    Most of the time they have "pharaoh hounds" on petfinder or other rescues sites, the dogs aren't PHs.  Our rescue organization checks them out pretty thoroughly.

    As far as the puppies from down the road, get me a phone number or other contact info.  I'll either look into it myself or have the PHCA do it.
    • Puppy
    Vets also agree it is better to keep your male intact because it is healthier, but a female should be spayed before 7 years of age due to the risk of pyro.  I dont agree with the neutering.  Whether or not it is healthier isnt the problem, it is the fact a male can get loose and breed and we have more unwanted puppies. 
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat


    Couldn't low litter registrations also be attributed to the fact that those breeds aren't as popular, and therefore as easy to sell, as the more popular breeds?  The average person knows what a Cocker Spaniel looks like, but wouldn't know a Harrier if it was standing right in front of them.

    Also, the question remains, shouldn't being a responsible breeder include working to regulate all breeders to be just as responsible as these breeders are?


    Those breeds aren't as popular for a big reason.  Talk to anyone that has asked me about PHs, or asked any of the breeders about them.  The first things we say are the reasons why someone won't want to get one.  I've talked more people out of getting a PH for several reasons, the first being:  These aren't dogs for everyone.  These are special needs dogs-they're smarter than your average 5 year old human and louder than your teenager, the only reason they don't ask to borrow your car is because they can get you to drive them where they want to go, or they can probably get there more quickly by running!

    As far as selling lower registration breeds, especially the PH, Ibizan, or Saluki....god it would be easy.  I could have sold the litter that I aborted.  Both grandsires were multi BIS winners.  The pups would have gone for anywhere from $500-1700 each.  You have no idea how many times people came up to me and asked me if I was going to breed my boy and my foster girl.  I could have had two or three litters sold.  It's that easy.   (I wouldn't do this, however, as I am totally in love with this breed and each and every puppy that I adopt out I would worry about constantly-just like most of the fanciers of this breed do.  Most of the people that own PHs know their dog's lineage and siblings, who owns the siblings and alot of times they'll get together just for fun-no shows or LC events.)

    As to regulating all breeders, that's a very altruistic thought.  But just like eliminating dog fighting, it will never happen.  As long as there is "profit" in a product that product will continue to exist.  My opinion is that one shouldn't worry about the producer as much as the consumer.  Get the info out there to the end user-the dog owner.  Show them the truth and slowly the mills will die. 






    • Gold Top Dog
     
    As previously described, the one time I tried to set up an educational booth that included information about adoption, I was ostracized, and it was clear that rescue wasn't wanted in that venue.  You say you don't see animal activists at shows - why aren't the breed rescues setting up booths at dog shows, showcasing their available dogs?  I've certainly never seen that at any dog show I've been to. 

     
    Might that be because the breeders don't want dogs showcased at these shows...other than there own..or others breeders dogs?
     
    Have a question. Shadomoon mentioned the name Hutchinson....is that a veterinarian?  If so, could he be from Ohio?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: dyan

     
    As previously described, the one time I tried to set up an educational booth that included information about adoption, I was ostracized, and it was clear that rescue wasn't wanted in that venue.  You say you don't see animal activists at shows - why aren't the breed rescues setting up booths at dog shows, showcasing their available dogs?  I've certainly never seen that at any dog show I've been to. 


    Might that be because the breeders don't want dogs showcased at these shows...other than there own..or others breeders dogs?

    Have a question. Shadomoon mentioned the name Hutchinson....is that a veterinarian?  If so, could he be from Ohio?


    Actually, at the IKC show in Chicago (a large AKC event) there are tons of all breed as well as breed rescue booths......
    • Gold Top Dog
    As previously described, the one time I tried to set up an educational booth that included information about adoption, I was ostracized, and it was clear that rescue wasn't wanted in that venue.  You say you don't see animal activists at shows - why aren't the breed rescues setting up booths at dog shows, showcasing their available dogs?  I've certainly never seen that at any dog show I've been to. 


    Well for one thing it is against show rules.  From reading the rules it appears that you can't offer dogs for adoption at an event. 
    [/size][align=left] [align=left]SECTION 11. Only dogs that are eligible to be[align=left]shown under The American Kennel Club rules shall be[align=left]allowed within the show precincts, except that dogs[align=left]engaged as a special attraction with American Kennel[align=left]Club approval may also be present.[align=left]There shall be no benching, nor offering for sale or[align=left]breeding, nor any displaying of unentered dogs. These[align=left]dogs shall be subject to all rules relating to health and[align=left]veterinarians. The owners or agents shall be responsible[align=left]for the care and safety of such dogs.[align=left]If, because of space consideration or other reason, a[align=left]club wishes to restrict the presence of unentered dogs[align=left]from some part or all of the show precincts, such[align=left]restriction shall be stated in the premium list.[align=left] [align=left]I do know that at a lot of the breed national specialities they have a rescue parade with all money raised going to the national rescue funds.  But there is no selling or adopting of dogs allowed at the show site.[align=left] [align=left]Also at the Euk. nationals there is a meet the breed exhibit where many of the breed rescue organizations have booths and information.[align=left] [align=left]Also in my area are the following:[align=left]The sheltie club has raffles for resuce at all their events.[align=left]The dalmation club holds an annual agility trial where the raffle and part of the show proceeds support their rescue.[align=left]The corgi club does the same,  The golden club has a raffle for resuce, the entire proceeds from the GSD agility trial (1 of the 2 they have each year) goes to resuce.[align=left]Many other clubs also have some type of fund raising activies at their events or rescue.[align=left] [align=left]I think that you will see more activities concerning rescue at the local speciality level than large multi breed shows.[align=left] [align=left] [/size]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Shadomoon

    Vets also agree it is better to keep your male intact because it is healthier, but a female should be spayed before 7 years of age due to the risk of pyro.  I dont agree with the neutering.  Whether or not it is healthier isnt the problem, it is the fact a male can get loose and breed and we have more unwanted puppies. 




    That is simply not true, unneuterred males have much higher incidents of Prostrate problems and Testicular Cancer. This is well documented in many Vet University Publications.

    [linkhttp://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_neuter.html]http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_neuter.html[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I know this study will be discounted by some simply because it is on the NAIA website, but at least it does have a list of scientific references at the end.
     
    [linkhttp://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf]http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf[/link]
    • Puppy

    ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

    ORIGINAL: Shadomoon

    Vets also agree it is better to keep your male intact because it is healthier, but a female should be spayed before 7 years of age due to the risk of pyro.  I dont agree with the neutering.  Whether or not it is healthier isnt the problem, it is the fact a male can get loose and breed and we have more unwanted puppies. 




    That is simply not true, unneuterred males have much higher incidents of Prostrate problems and Testicular Cancer. This is well documented in many Vet University Publications.



    I think that if one looks at a broad range of studies, one finds that it is pretty darned hard to predict whether spay/neutering will be beneficial or detrimental. Spay/neutering obviously pretty much eliminates the risk of cancer in reproductive organs, and nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra. On the other hand, other types of cancers, as well as hypothyroidism and urogenital problems seem to be more prevalent in spay/neutered dogs. So, there really isn't a simple answer to whether spay/neutering is medically beneficial or not. It likely depends on the breed of dog and environmental factors. Which is an excellent reason to allow owners the right to choose which risks they think are greater in their specific situation, rather than having the risks chosen by legislation.
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: Xerxes

    As to regulating all breeders, that's a very altruistic thought.  But just like eliminating dog fighting, it will never happen.  As long as there is "profit" in a product that product will continue to exist.  My opinion is that one shouldn't worry about the producer as much as the consumer.  Get the info out there to the end user-the dog owner.  Show them the truth and slowly the mills will die. 

     
    I've been aware of puppymill education for 20 years.  It's even been on shows such as Dateline and 20/20 that are on mainstream tv.  Have the mills died?  And it's not just the mills that are the issue - it's also the backyard breeders breeding for profit that are the issue.  What possible sense does it make to try to educate 12 puppy buyers instead of regulating 1 breeder that would sell to them?  Has targetting the consumer for education prevented the need for regulations in any other industry?  For instance, would it be appropriate to not have laws against using flammable materials in children's pajamas, but instead just warn consumers against buying them?  When I was a kid, there were fireworks dealers on practically every vacant lot.  Now it's illegal to sell fireworks here.  Does it stop people from getting them?  No, but it sure does cut down on it tremendously, and just using education for consumers wouldn't have done that.
     
    IMO, the call for more education instead of regulations for breeders is simply another dodge to keep from having to meet a minimum standard and being told what to do.  But again, why should breeders be immune to the regulations that other industries have to meet?  And why don't the better breeders care enough about the dogs to want all breeders to be as ethical as they are?