"Cruelty by Breeders"

ORIGINAL: meilani
You really don't have to explain rescues reasons for their requirements. You're preaching to the choir. I've volunteered at shelters in my area. I totally understand their reasons for some of their requirements and I think they go overboard with some of their requirements. I also understand that those reasons are in place because of irresponsible people and because they don't have the man power to do homechecks or even calling references. With that said, because of some of their requirements, that still doesn't change the fact they do turn down good homes.

 
Since I don't know everyone's understanding of rescue, I feel that I DO have to explain the reasoning for some of these things.  Take for instance your statement that rescuers don't have the man power to do homechecks or call references.  Though I'm not a big fan of references, I've been doing homechecks for 20 years, and all the reputable rescues I know do the same.
 

So sorry, but if you were turned down by rescue, and accepted by a breeder, that would be a huge red flag questioning how responsible that breeder really is.  JMO of course.

A huge red flag huh? Yeah. The breeder I purchased my Rottie from OFA'd and CERF'd his dogs among other things. His dogs have conformation and herding titles. He offered a worthy health guarantee and if I can't keep my dog for any reason, I'm to return him to the breeder or face breach of contract. But other than that, I guess he could be more responsible. [8|] 
 
Yes, he could.  It's often said that a responsible breeder is dedicated to preserving and improving his chosen breed.  But I think it goes beyond that to also placing responsibly, and if a breeder places his dogs in a situation that has all the earmarks of potential failure, then how responsible can he be?  We're talking black/white here, and there are always shades of gray, but the point I was making is that a red flag would be raised on a breeder that placed where rescue had turned down.  Red flags don't totally condemn, they just require a closer look, and in the case of the potential buyer/adopter, that closer look could mean finding out what their alternative plan would be to take away the concern that raised the red flag. 

Although the shelters and rescues refused to adopt to me because I had a 3 year old, the breeder didn't let that negate the fact that I also had experience with large working breeds(Dobermans, German Shepherd Dogs and Boxers), I wasn't working at the time so I had lots of time to raise this dog up properly and I had the space for a Rottweiler. I'm glad he was willing to take a chance, I made a point not to disappoint him and he provided my family with a great dog.

Everyone thinks they should be the exception to the "rules."  Even the people who end up dumping their dogs.  Did your experience with working breeds also include experience with a 3-year-old's interaction with that kind of dog?  Had you previously dealt with protecting the dog against big wheel attacks and running/screaming children at play?  Did the breeder ascertain that his dog would be safe in that kind of situation, or would the dog be more likely to develop fears and behavior problems that would endanger children?  These are rhetorical questions, but my point is that just because a breeder gave you what you wanted, doesn't mean they are a responsible breeder.
 
Out of curiousity, how long did you have to wait to get your puppy - from the first call to the breeder, to when you actually took the dog home?

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

What sweet pics Meilani....great post as well!
[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=wavetowel.gif]

As a breeder you get either "you're too snooty and ask too many questions and cause people to go to pet stores and BYB's" and now I guess you get "You place dogs with people who shouldn't have one according to a rescue (who BTW places dogs that have unknown histories and thus are completely different than a breeder who knows their dogs and ancestors behind them intimately) and aren't stringent enough in your requirements"...lol.
 
The mind boggles.

 
You'd have a point if all that a rescuer placed was dogs with unknown histories, but that's not the case.  Some dogs come into rescue from homes where their history is known.

ORIGINAL: meilani

A huge red flag huh? Yeah. The breeder I purchased my Rottie from OFA'd and CERF'd his dogs among other things. His dogs have conformation and herding titles. He offered a worthy health guarantee and if I can't keep my dog for any reason, I'm to return him to the breeder or face breach of contract. But other than that, I guess he could be more responsible. [8|] 

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat
 
Yes, he could.  It's often said that a responsible breeder is dedicated to preserving and improving his chosen breed.  But I think it goes beyond that to also placing responsibly, and if a breeder places his dogs in a situation that has all the earmarks of potential failure, then how responsible can he be?

 
And what "earmark of potential failure" did I have? A 3 year old child. Hardly a major cause for concern considering everything else was perfectly fine in regards to the quality of dog owner I'd make.
 

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat
 
We're talking black/white here, and there are always shades of gray, but the point I was making is that a red flag would be raised on a breeder that placed where rescue had turned down.  Red flags don't totally condemn, they just require a closer look, and in the case of the potential buyer/adopter, that closer look could mean finding out what their alternative plan would be to take away the concern that raised the red flag.

 
The red flag in my case was a 3 year old child. The only "alternative plan" that would "take away the concern that raised the red flag" would be to get rid of my child. Not totally feasible there.  

ORIGINAL: meilani
 
Although the shelters and rescues refused to adopt to me because I had a 3 year old, the breeder didn't let that negate the fact that I also had experience with large working breeds(Dobermans, German Shepherd Dogs and Boxers), I wasn't working at the time so I had lots of time to raise this dog up properly and I had the space for a Rottweiler. I'm glad he was willing to take a chance, I made a point not to disappoint him and he provided my family with a great dog.

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat
 
Everyone thinks they should be the exception to the "rules."

 
I didn't expect to be an exception to the rules. The shelters and rescue told me the rules, I accepted them and went the breeder route.
 

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat
 
Even the people who end up dumping their dogs.  Did your experience with working breeds also include experience with a 3-year-old's interaction with that kind of dog?  Had you previously dealt with protecting the dog against big wheel attacks and running/screaming children at play?

 
My experience with large breed dogs began at an early age. My family owned GSD's and Dobermans when I was little and I was taught how to properly behave around dogs. What I learned growing up is something I have taught to my son.
 

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat
 
Did the breeder ascertain that his dog would be safe in that kind of situation, or would the dog be more likely to develop fears and behavior problems that would endanger children?  These are rhetorical questions, but my point is that just because a breeder gave you what you wanted, doesn't mean they are a responsible breeder.

 
My breeder asked me various questions as to how I planned on raising this dog in a home with a child. He asked me a lot of questions. I asked him a lot of questions. I made it quite clear as to what I was expecting in a dog and he made it quite clear as to what he was expecting in a potential owner. I highly doubt that if he had any question as to my veracity as a good dog owner, he wouldn't have placed a dog with me.

ORIGINAL: DogAdvocat
 
Out of curiousity, how long did you have to wait to get your puppy - from the first call to the breeder, to when you actually took the dog home?

 
About a year. I contacted shelters and rescues first and once I found out of their requirements, I began to research breeders. I got in contact with him after many people recommended him and he had a litter planned that following spring. We spoke on end before the litter was born and he put me on his waiting list for a pet quality dog. Luckily, there was a pet quality dog and the rest is history.

LOL Meilani...it's almost like folks wish something bad would have happened.
 
It's kind of sad, you think folks'd at least be pleased the dog very obviously has a wonderful home. I am very glad you and your family have your handsome Rottie boy.

knowing that there are sheltered dogs needing homes
already in the world makes me think
twice about ever breeding
my future dogs,but for right now both my babies are fixed

I'm so tired of the attitude that a "law" will fix something! This once was a land where freedom was the byword, but now everyone wants laws, laws and more laws. Big insurance didn't want claims from people hurt not wearing helmets and seatbelts, so now we have  laws. Somebody commented about child safety seats, but how good are they really? How many bad accidents are caused by a mother's natural instinct to tend to her crying child, when that child is in the back seat facing away from her! Talk about a distracted driver! People get a grip! Statistics will prove anything you want them to prove! In my profession we have to wear a safety harness for fall protection, and the safety men will tell you all about how many lives were saved by wearing one, BUT when you ask how many accidents were caused BY the harness they get real quiet. I wear my harness because I'm required to, to keep my job, but it doesn't make me safer in most instances. I wear my seatbelt because I do think it is safer, law or no law. We the dog people need to quit arguing with each other and instead be proactive in our communities. How many of us teach dog safety to school children? How many of us teach dog obedience for the parks department? How many of us work with the 4-H dog projects? Rescue is admirable, but it is "reacting" to the problem and what we dog people need to do is be active to start making the problem go away. Oh, and Dog advocate, what you said about the whole neighborhood could have been the one to turn my neighbor in. Honey, I AM the neighborhood! There is not another neighbor for at least a mile, and my "yard" is several acres! 

knowing that there are sheltered dogs needing homes
already in the world makes me think
twice about ever breeding

 
You know what.  There will always be dogs in shelters needing homes as long as there are irresponsible owners.  They had homes.  That is a fact that no amount of legislation will fix, unless you want a police state that comes into your house every month to insure that you are being a responsible owner and people have to jump over a bar so high to get a dog that the normal, reasonable person can't comply with all the conditions.  See, that is one of the tactics,  set the bar so high that dogs can't come out of rescue then complain that there are so many dogs in shelters that we need to do something.  Gee, what is that something, crack down on the breeders and set so many regulations and conditions that no average person could comply with and financially afford.  Guess where that lead to.   No more dogs for your children and children's children to enjoy in their life.
 
 

Working in veterinary medicine I come across many pet owners who simply tell me they just do not want their pet's spayed/neutered, they want their dog to have one litter to "enjoy" the puppies. Part of my job is to educate people about responsible pet ownership and when someone tells me they want to breed I kindly give them a copy of an estament for a c-section and a copy of info about breeding. I can not tell a person that breeding is good or bad I can only inform them of the outcomes of their decisions.

What I have come to realize is that many people are just not aware that they are irresponsible owners. They need some guidance to understand how to properly care for a dog. It's hard to judge a person when they have no idea that they are doing anything wrong. Often people think of dogs as just anouther pice of property and it takes a lot of understand to make these people realize that a dog should be part of the family.

I get a lot of joy out of informing a client of proper ways to care for a dog to have them come back a month later and tank me for telling them how to care for their dog. For example, I've explained to people how keeping a dog on a chain 24/7 is not at all good for the dog's health, they never knew that they were doing anything wrong because that is how they thought a dog was suppose to be kept. They start bringing the dog inside with the family and form a bond with the dog they never knew could exist. Same with breeding, if they are more informed about it they make better choices.

Now I make my own choices as well, I want a certain dog, I know the risk. I know what life is like with a dog with many health problems and I see the results of poor breeding every day in pure breeds and mixes. I do what I can for rescue and I also see the other side of breeding and show. I am not bias to one or another I am only informed on what is going on.

What I have come to realize is that many people are just not aware that they are irresponsible owners. They need some guidance to understand how to properly care for a dog. It's hard to judge a person when they have no idea that they are doing anything wrong. Often people think of dogs as just anouther pice of property and it takes a lot of understand to make these people realize that a dog should be part of the family.

 
Exactly.  Education is the key.  It makes for responsible owners making responsible decisions.
 
 

Now, you'd think new parents would just be responsible enough to know that they should have one, but somewhere along the line, it was found that many weren't, so now we have a law. I think it's sad that we have to legislate things like that too, but if that's what it takes to insure that babies are protected, then that's what we do, right?

 
That's a good analogy. We've already accepted  other such legal "intrusions" into our lives because too many people had reason to envy the brains of a doorknob. We didn't have carseats or even seatbelt laws when I was a kid. But that doesn't mean that it was right. 95 to 99 percent of the time, wearing a seatbelt will save your life.
 
As for Dog Advocat, I understand the desire to want something right now and I can't do much about that. Cities will give away tax breaks to build a new stadium in order to attract a bid for the Olympics on the hope of making a few million dollars during those games. But they will cut funding to animal services and libraries and even school lunch programs. Our culture has problems.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Now, you'd think new parents would just be responsible enough to know that they should have one, but somewhere along the line, it was found that many weren't, so now we have a law. I think it's sad that we have to legislate things like that too, but if that's what it takes to insure that babies are protected, then that's what we do, right?

That's a good analogy. We've already accepted  other such legal "intrusions" into our lives because too many people had reason to envy the brains of a doorknob. We didn't have carseats or even seatbelt laws when I was a kid. But that doesn't mean that it was right. 95 to 99 percent of the time, wearing a seatbelt will save your life.

As for Dog Advocat, I understand the desire to want something right now and I can't do much about that. Cities will give away tax breaks to build a new stadium in order to attract a bid for the Olympics on the hope of making a few million dollars during those games. But they will cut funding to animal services and libraries and even school lunch programs. Our culture has problems.

I can remember when seatbelt laws were first enacted, and some of the people I knew started whining about the government taking away their freedom etc..etc,,, blah blah...... Then when it was proven that seatbelts save countless lives and serious injuries every day, the whining finally stopped. Some people have to be forced by law to do almost anything , even if it makes their life better or safer. That is what living in a society requires. 

ORIGINAL: HulkSaidy

knowing that there are sheltered dogs needing homes
already in the world makes me think
twice about ever breeding
my future dogs,but for right now both my babies are fixed

Well said!!!  []

That is a fact that no amount of legislation will fix, unless you want a police state that comes into your house every month to insure that you are being a responsible owner and people have to jump over a bar so high to get a dog that the normal, reasonable person can't comply with all the conditions.

 
Although we all want to see completely empty shelters, I also think we all realize that the reality of that is not going to happen, at least in the near future.  However, I don't think that's a valid reason to say "this will never completely fix the problem, therefore, we shouldn't move forward with it".  We all agree that education is vital, but as other examples have shown, i.e. seatbelts laws, sometimes it's necessary to implement it thru legislation.  I also think that there will never be a lack of dogs or cats available for anyone who seriously wants one.  If the person out to pick up a loaf of bread at the grocery store can no longer find the kid with the box of accidental puppies out front, then I see that as a very positive thing. 
 

Some people have to be forced by law to do almost anything , even if it makes their life better or safer. That is what living in a society requires.

Agreed. To use another example that Dog Advocat spoke on, while education against drinking and driving is important and will work, to some extent, there is also a need for DUI laws who for those who ignore the good advice or even social pressure against DUI.

When I say things like, if you can't be a good breeder, you can't be one at all, it is from my upbringing, when, if you couldn't play nicely with a toy, you couldn't play with it at all. My upbringing was a not a democracy. I grew up around people military veterans and some active military people. Orders are given and followed.

In our free society, we do have freedoms, as long as they do not impactly negatively on someone else. And we sometimes need laws to define the boundaries. I don't recall, now, whether or not the mandatory s/n in San Jose resulted in few instances of needing euthanasia. We're going to pay for it, one way or another. NILIF.

Here are my questions.  To make you a GOOD pet owner, lets see what you do:

1. What food do you feed?
3. How big is your yard?
4. What type of dog do you have?
5. Have you had your dogs eyes CERFed and Hips OFAed?
6. Have you gone and titled a dog?
7. Do you know what a title is?
12. Do you work?
20. How many dogs do you have?
21. Have you ever met or talked to a breeder?
22. Have you ever gone to a dog show?
23. Ever gone to an agility/obedience show?
24. Do you know what conformation, agility, rally, obedience is?
25. Can you honestly sit there and tell me there arent good breeders in the world?
26. Have you ever fostered a rescue?
27. Have you ever volunteered at a shelter?
28. Have you ever donated to a shelter?
29. Have you ever donated to a breed club?


I don't understand how on earth the above, out of the list you gave, make you a good pet owner or not. Is someone a bad owner because they feed Pedigree as opposed to Innova? Or if they have never been to a dog show? Or if they don't have a huge yard? If they work or not? John Q P who rescued his scruffy lab mix from the shelter, maybe feeds it mediocre food and doesn't know the AKC from the CKC....who cares?? He and his wife and kids all love the dog and the dog is having a much better life that it would have had at a shelter....

You can't have people answer these questions and deem them a good or bad owner. That's ridiculous.....

I also have no clue what this has to do with breeding.....unless I totally missed something....?