The Pit Bull Ban: Yay or Nay

    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok everyone, I am going to try to respond to all the recent posts but be patient please.

    First of all, I just want to say something. I do not want to wish a ban upon pit bulls. But I feel what I feel just as you all do. Sometimes I try to think like you all do - some pit bulls won't hurt anyone and I do feel bad for those innocent ones who would get taken away and families upset by a ban  But when I hear about kids or dogs being attacked by pit bulls, I am outraged. It is a natural reaction. Especially when I see pictures of other dogs that have been attacked by pit bulls, I feel that if I don't take a stand against pit bulls and for the ban that I am forgetting them and abandoning them (them being the dog victims of the attacks). This may sound dumb but it's 100% truth. Just thought I should explain my sentimental and heart felt reasons for supporting the ban rather than the logical. Hopefully this will show that no, my intention was not to be a "troll" or cause an uproar. I really wanted to see everyone's thinking behind this issue. I wish it hadn't evolved into rude comments but I guess it's much easier to target someone over the internet when you don't see the offense that is caused in the person's face.

    Anyway...

    first to polarexpress's questions:

    Yes, I would support requiring owners of dogs over 40lb to complete an education program. I feel it would educate them more before they get a larger dog and the committment to a program might scare off people looking for a big dog simply because of its threatening appearance.

    No, (about pit bites on or off property)because that does not change the attack...in other words, whether on or off property, pit bulls can attack with fatalities as a result. That is what concerns me.

    Yes, I fully support making it illegal for criminals with violent backgrounds to own dogs. The criminal would most likely be violent toward the dog, and no dog deserves an owner like that.

    As for the Rottweilers question, I can't say yes or no because I have not researched them enough. I would be interested to know what you have to say about them, however, or anyone else for that matter.

    As for your last question, do you mean "pit-type" dogs as in those that are actually pit, or pit-like in appearance?  And no, I don't know what I'd say - probably something like I'm sorry that this is necessary to prevent further fatal pit bull attacks and save the lives of humans and other canines. You all must please understand that I truly wish the ban was not essential and dogs did not have to euthanized, but I feel that it is essential.

    In response to badrap's post:
    Note: No, I did not not read your post because I didn't want to take the time. If I didn't feel strongly about this issue and care about it, I wouldn't be sitting here at 11:00 at night writing on a dog forum about it with words that will in no way bring any change or benefit myself.

    On genetics of human aggression and the impossibility of breeding for it in APBT and their cousins:

    I must ask as I am honestly curious, how is it not possible that a dog willl be human aggressive due to the temperaments in general and toward humans of its predecessors? It makes complete sense. Dogs can be naturally aggressive and naturally have bad temperaments...this natural aggression could be shown through attacks on humans. If a dog has a bad temperament in general, carried through its line, then it is also more likely to be human aggressive . There is a connection between a bad temperament and natural aggression and harm upon humans.

    On MY ideas about unpredictability:
    Note - I used links because people have been asking for sources. If I provide my own views and statements, I seem to find more comments that say "Show me a source!" instead of actually addressing the content I discussed.

    Pit bulls, in general, do not signal that they will attack. They do not always snarl, or growl, like most dogs do. More often than not, one day they attack seemingly out of nowehre because no warning signs were displayed either in the months or seconds before the attack. When you read news reports on PB attacks, it is often stated that the dog just runs up to people and starts attacking.

    I read the alternatives you suggested (I'm guessing they're only in the first post you made? Please correct if mistaken). High licensing fees would not solve the problem because it is likely that many people would not buy the license, amd it's also evident that even if licenses are attained by responsible pit owners, those dogs with the good owners can still do the same amount of damage as one owned by a criminal. A good deal of pit bull attacks are instigated by dogs which come from loving families  who one day for one reason or another snap, and attack either random passersby or its own family. Also, a pit bull could accidentally get out of the door, a mistake which the owner did not intend for at all, and attack someone. So it is not just the criminals pits that do damage, therefore the high licensing fee does not address the problem fully. This is also why it's not just breeders improperly caring for their dogs, as you pointed out. I am with you that enforcement of laws pertaining to dogs is especially weak and needs to be present in society. I'm for felony penalties for serious dog attacks as well, at least those occurring without provocation.

    rwbeagles, let me rephrase my statement if you will. I am tired of what this debate has become.

    another note to badrap. What do I think of you? I have absolutely nothing negative to say about you. I am talking about a breed of dog. Also, how did I insult your character? Where did I say that all pit owners are bad people??

    And I cannot say enough that my intention was not to "pit TRUE dog lovers against each other" (and yes, I am a true dog lover. I love my dogs to pieces. I am a dog walker at the humane society. I have shadowed at vet offices by choice. I take my dogs to obedience classes. I'm not trying to sound like a hurt puppy here, but hinting that I'm not a true dog lover really hurts because I am so passionate about dogs. My friends are the ones who tell me I am too obsessed with them, and ask me why I am so "in love" with these creatures. Dogs are my passion. So yes, being subtly told that I'm not a true dog lover (and you are not the only one who did this, I might add) stings. It's the one thing that separates me in my family, that people notice me for. Ok, I'm kind of tearing up so I'll wrap this up!!)

    But again, I was not in any way trying to pit people against each other or cause an upset. I thought I could come here and debate this here where it seemed as if I could find some people who were equally passionate about the issue (whether agreeing with me or not) because a lot of people I know would get bored in about 2.5 seconds if I asked them the same question.
    • Gold Top Dog
    As for the Rottweilers question, I can't say yes or no because I have not researched them enough.


    But you HAVE researched pit bulls "enough"?  Can you provide some sources from published academic journals or peer reviewed academic articles to support any of your claims?  Maybe I missed something in the past six pages, but the "sources" I looked at were YouTube video clips and blog articles from .coms.  I'm not saying sources don't exist, I'm just saying as far as what academia considers a credible "source", we have yet to see one introduced to this thread (for either side).  I will go check some databases if I can get logged in from home....
    • Gold Top Dog
    A good deal of pit bull attacks are instigated by dogs which come from loving families who one day for one reason or another snap, and attack either random passersby or its own family.

     
    I'm not so sure about that.  Whenever I hear about attacks it usually seems that the dog was not living in very good conditions.  Not indoors with a loving family.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Actually, I said that you WERE a true dog lover, and that we were currently pitted against each other.
     
    This is an example of my problems with your posts.  You are reading them, and I understand that you may be tired, but you are not reading them carefully.  I did not question your love of dogs.  I am not one for indirect assertions.  If I have something to say, I will say it outright.
     
    This is illustrated in your response to my description about Human Aggression and the impossibility of breeding for it.  Pit Bulls are not only bred for dog aggression, but are SPECIFICALLY bred AGAINST human aggression, as stated in my first post.  General aggression is not the same as dog specific aggression and human specific aggression.  If you were to argue, as Edie did, that you were not afraid for yourself or for the neighborhood children, but for your dogs, then you would have received the same response that I gave Edie.  That would not be a baseless fear.
     
    What you don't understand is that when you suggest that my dogs are inherently out of control killers just waiting to attack the next passerby, then you DO attack my character as a dog owner.  You imply that despite my best efforts, nothing is good enough, and that I am too stupid to see that.  You may be suggesting indirectly, but indirect suggestions are no less offensive to me.
     
    If I understand you correctly, it is your OPINION that dogs from loving families are just as likely to attack.  It is clear to me that you have no experience around pit bulls.   You are hereby invited to my home to spend time with me and my dogs so you can see where your opinions may be a bit errant.
     
    I have no problem with you expressing your opinion.  I do, however, have a problem with you continually stating that even the most loving of Pit Bulls or their cousins are monsters laying in wait for the next opportunity to attack because this is simply untrue.
     
    My problem here is that your opinions seem to be purely based on internet research and inflammatory media stories, which are designed to sell the story, and NOT on personal experience.  I apologize in advance if you have had a horrific personal experience of some kind, but I doubt it, as I assume you would have used it as a leverage point much earlier.
    • Gold Top Dog
    The results of my search...

    JSTOR (all peer-reviewed) "staffordshire terrier" AND "aggression" - one match, "The Lost Villages of Medieval England", Geographical Journal, 1951......erm, no.

    InfoTrac "staffordshire terrier" AND "aggression" - NO matches, peer-reviewed or otherwise.

    LexisNexis
    "staffordshire terrier" AND "aggression" - one match for an abstract regarding video monitoring systems.....not quite.

    PsychInfo "staffordshire terrier" AND "aggression" - NO matches.

    BioAgIndex "staffordshire terrier" AND "aggression" - NO matches.

    BasicBIOSIS "staffordshire terrier" AND "aggression" - NO matches.

    MEDLINE(PubMed) "staffordshire terrier" AND "aggression" - 4 matches, the only relevant one being "The Regulation of Aggressive Animals and the Staffordshire Terrier"  Unfortunately, the full text was not available and it's in Dutch, so I'd have to dig it up at the library and read it very slowly, hehe.


    Alright, it's getting late so I'll quit searching for now, but I think it's fair to say that we're hard pressed to find any scientifically substantiated data that can credibly link pit bulls with inherent human aggression.  Oh, and I ran all the queries again using "pit bull" rather than Staffordshire terrier and found nothing.






    • Gold Top Dog
    Oh, and as far as allowing "personal data" to cloud judgments, I might as well add that I have been bit in the face by a rottweiler, bit everywhere on my body by a retriever, my brother was bit in the thigh by a Germand Shepherd, my friends' German Shoirthair Pointer bit a kid in the face, and my mom's cousin's son had half his scalp ripped off by his neighbors German Shepherd.  I don't know anyone who's been bit by a pit bull, or anyone whose pit bull has bit someone (and I know plenty of people with pits, they are really popular around here).

    I think that like most dog breeds, you are either a pit person or you are not.  Personally, I'll probably never own a pit bull or any terrier.  They're just not my type.  Same thing goes for toy dogs and sighthounds though, they just aren't for me.  I'm sure a lot of people would say the same thing to my face about GSDs.  Actually, lots of people have.  I don't take it personally, I just correct their incorrect information and allow them to chose the right dog for them, whether it be a pit, a toy dog, or a GSD.  So don't think I'm in this thread defending pits because I love pits.  I really don't care one way or the other.  However, I cannot support ANY blanket ban on ANY breed of ANY animal without some solid empirical evidence supporting such a ban.  I"m still waiting....
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ugh.  Never mind.  I'm done with this.  It is clear that you are not interested in debating but would rather yell how you feel from the roof tops and then be *shocked* when people take issue with you characterizing their dogs as mindless killers and suggesting that they be killed.

    A great deal of what you have said are personal attacks upon my dog and therefore upon myself.  Someone said your dog was stupid?  Well, you have said that my dog should die.  I hardly think that compares.

    Will you be the one to kill Sally?  Will you be the one to look her in the eyes and tell her that she deserves to die for nothing more then you own false sense of security as you slip the needle in?  Somehow I doubt it.

    I feel very sorry for people like you.  DH and I will pray for you.[&o]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sillysally, you got me thinking... when friends and family always get into debates over political things and such and someone says "we should KILL that person" or "I think he deserves to die", I just say "Could you be the one inserting the needle? No?  Ok, shut up then." (see I'm against the death penatly, but that's a whole different debate, but I think my line of questioning applies here).

    So, IrishSetterGirl, since you insist you feel so passionately about this issue, will you be the one inserting the needle into all the pit bulls?  You could with good conscience go into the shelters, pull them out of their kennels, and euthanize them?  You could with good conscience go to the homes of Bullymom, badrap, chewbecca, etc and take their dogs from their homes and put them down yourself?  If not, then don't say you feel passionately about this.  Don't get yourself all worked up over sensationalistic news stories and blog posts if you can't do the dirty work.

    ETA:  Sillysally, I liked your post before you edited it. [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Yes and how many of us hear of JQP's lament..."the dog just snapped at our son...who was only sitting on the dog like a horsey...like he always does"....OY! I have seriously heard people tell me their dog is wanting to "play" with mine...and I know for sure....that dog ain't playin'...lol. The average man or woman on the street is woefully ignorant of dog body language...and thus the comments in stories of "the dog just snapped" are woefully inaccurate.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Just something to think about.  The immediate members of my family have 2 labs, a Scottie, and a pit bull, pure pit bull that was found as a stray.   She's the 2nd pit bull in my family as my uncle has owned one before.  And, there is Willow.  Guess which dog cannot be around all the other dogs because of aggression.  Guess which dog is unpredictable and there fore we are more comfortable without her at family parties.  WILLOW!  While Blue, the pit bull runs and plays with the other dogs all over my dad's property.  And, enjoys burgers and treats all day from peoples hands. 
     
    That's like saying we shouldn't allow whatever race you can find the most statistics for violence on.  They aren't all like that. 
     
    I hope maybe my post will maybe not change your mind but at least make you think about this in a different way.  I agree with others that something needs to be done to protect these dogs from the people doing this to them.  The people need to be addressed.  The dogs are innocent really. 
     
    And, I'm truly sorry some people thought it necessary to attack your sweet Irish Setters.  I've done a lot of debating here over the years but never had I attacked a breed.  We are supposed to be dog lovers.  What kind of dog lover attacks a breed like that??  And, it didn't prove any points except to make me think twice about THEIR arguement.
    • Gold Top Dog
    And, I'm truly sorry some people thought it necessary to attack your sweet Irish Setters.


    I second that.. [&o]

    "the dog just snapped at our son...who was only sitting on the dog like a horsey...like he always does"....OY!


    Oh man that is one huge bugbear of mine!!!

    Parents say "My dog is so gentle,he lets little jonny tug on his ears and pull his tail" or "jonny propells himself off the couch onto the sleeping dog and the dog ignores him" and if the dog does retaliate,and so he should,he's carted down to the vet to be put to sleep asap as he's a vicious dangerous dog! IMO little jonny deserves a good snap on the butt from the dog!

    I was with a friend when she was selling her toy breed pups,and a prospective owner who seemed perfect proudly stated that her other dog at home lets her kid pull him around by the tail and all sorts of horrid things!She couldnt understand why we wouldnt sell her a pup [8|]
    • Gold Top Dog
    [font="trebuchet ms"]The average man or woman on the street is woefully ignorant of dog body language...and thus the comments in stories of "the dog just snapped" are woefully inaccurate.
    [/font]

     
    Gotta agree with this. I brought Culley over to meet my parents the other day, and they decided that their tiny chihuahua puppy (BYB bred [:'(]) needed to meet Culley. I had explained to them beforehand that Culley had a high prey drive and that a 2 pound puppy would be DINNER to him- and that the puppy needed to be crated during our visit.
     
    My parents insisted on introducing them anyway, holding the puppy while they did it. I was gritting my teeth and on the edge of my seat the entire time- and lo and behold, Culley starts mouthing the puppy. My parents were SO happy- "Look, he likes him! He wants to PLAY!" Um, no, by his posture it was very obvious that he thought the puppy looked like the tastiest treat he had ever seen, and the puppy was *terrified*.
     
    Apparently, most people have no clue what an "I see prey" posture looks like. They interpret too much negative dog behavior as "playing," and then when something DOES finally happen, they say it "came out of nowhere, totally unprovoked."
     
    I suspect (in fact I don't suspect, I KNOW) that 99% of dog attacks were a long time coming- idiots fail to use common sense, fail to read their dogs and dogs in general, and the dogs have to answer for it when their owners negligence results in disaster.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have read each & every post on this thread, with each passing post making me angrier at the OP.  I crafted a scathing response, but I decided not to post it, as it is mainly a personal attack on the OP for general lack of knowledge/stupidity.
     
    I will simply state that I am absolutely, 100%, against a pit bull ban, or any type of BSL for that matter.
     
    I do have to question, why such a new member of our forum, would even start a thread like this.  I have to state, that I personally believe that this thread was started to intentionally cause contreversy.  With each of the OP's follow up posts only stirring the pot a little more. JMHO
    • Gold Top Dog
    IMO little jonny deserves a good snap on the butt from the dog!

    I totally agree!  When I was little, it was a HUGE no-no to torture the dogs.  Dad even spanked me a few times for doing things to the dog that I wasn't supposed to.  After the spanking, if I continued to aggravate the dog, and I got bit, Dad would tell me point blank "You asked for it."  Parents don't seem to understand that most bites occure because the child was actually doing something to provoke the dog.  I am one of those parents that if I tell Madison not to do something that she can/will get hurt doing it, and she does it anyway and gets hurt, then she learned the hard way.  My mom doesn't agree with my way but, Dad was the same way with me and it didn't kill me when I was little.  Madison likes to try to pen the cats in corners, I tell her to stop because the cat doesn't like that and she will get bit/scratched, if the cat does fight back, I tell Maddy it's her own fault.  She knows what she is allowed to do to the dogs and she knows what she isn't allowed to do.  If I catch her doing something, I'll warn her first but if she continues, she get spanked.  Our dogs are very docile toward people and especially Madison and by my stepping in and stopping Madison's behavior, it keeps the dogs docile.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Bullymom you sound like the ideal dog/human mom [sm=wink2.gif]