The Pit Bull Ban: Yay or Nay

ORIGINAL: IrishSetterGrl

Ok, how does that discredit my source? I have been talking all along about pit bulls. Pit bull-type = representative of pit bulls.

IrishSetterGrl I think I understand many of your posts better.
 
It sounds like you believe "pit bull type" means a dog that will look and act like a pit bull and has many of the characteristics that people find scary in pits. But "pit bull type" used in BSL is based solely on looks and looks do not equal temperment or accurately predict behavior.
 
While a boxer (could be banned in Denver) may look like an APBT, a border terrier may have more in common internally.
 

In the field he is hard as nails "game as they come" and driving in attack.

 
That's from the border terrier standard. Game, tough and willing to suffer hysical punishment to kill vermin its size or bigger. Sound familiar?[]
 
So that's roblem with "pit bull type" ---it is imprecise and misleading.
 

Okay, this discussion has gotten a little out of hand.  I, personally, do not agree with the banning of ANY breed.  People have rights to own whatever kind of dog they wish to own.  Even if some people don't like the breed, that doesn't mean that we should outlaw these dogs and sentence them to death.  My hubby has 5 very large snakes.  He knows what they are capable of doing, therefore, they have their own tanks, in their own bedroom, which stays locked.  The tanks are also locked.  My point is, as long as you are responsible for your animal and it is well taken care of, you should be allowed to own whatever you want, within reason obiviously.  I'm not saying that people should have a Tiger running around their yard!  If owning a Pit is risky, then I am a risk taker.  Has everyone seen that show on National Geographic by Dr. Brady Barr?  He goes around testing th bite pressure of different animals.  It was a two part show and out of all of the dogs he tested, the Rottie had the high bite pressure.  It was a pretty cool show and I figured that the Pit's pressure would be the highest.  All dogs have the ability to bite and cause injury, some more so than others, but all dogs can/will turn bad if they are raised badly.

*shakes head* I'm going to quit discussing this, not because I'm "giving up" but because this has turned into everyone looking for little errors in my posts instead of actually discussing the issue at hand.

What issue?  See, for most of us here, there IS no issue.  You were the one that opened the thread and made all these accusations and conclusions that you have not been able to support with even a single piece of credible evidence.  This has nothing to do with errors in your posts.  You can post yourself in circles and no one will care either way because in this country, we don't write legislature based on the opinions of people that don't have first-hand experience or any solid reasoning for their objections.

I've never owned a pit bull or an Irish Setter, nor do I particularly like or dislike either of these breeds.  There are breeds I like a lot more, and breeds I like a lot less.  They're both pretty neutral to me so it's not difficult for me to avoid bias in this debate.  It seems that you're ruffling your own feathers here.  If you've never been attacked by a pit bull, what does it even matter?

If you've never been attacked by a pit bull, what does it even matter?

A lot!
On both sides.  We dont' want our kids, ourselves or our dogs to be attacked by a PB or any other dog for that matter.
On the other side...as long as PBs are in the news...as long as the fighting of them is in the news, as long as attack to an owner, another person or another animal (just recently a PB attacked a horse that was walking with its rider thru our metro parks system) are in the news... people are going to be afraid of them and try to ban them.      So we ALL need to get together and try to turn this around.   We need to protect the people AND the breed. 
While its probably true that other breeds might attack humans more..such as the small yappy kind.... they don't cause the damage that these dogs do...and that is why the media can play on it.   We need to go after the owners of the dogs...to make them more responsible...and help put a stop to the attacks...and maybe there won't be so many  states or cities trying to ban them. 
As someone (sorry to whoever that was....I don't feel like reading thru all this to find out) that stated above is 100% right. There are a lot of PB lovers and owners on this board... and I think we are all exceptional dog lovers...but the OP is expressing an opinion that is much milder than the general public who are NOT dog lovers.  THAT is what we have to fight.  Somehow we have to go after the owner that are not taking care of their dogs...that are breeding PBs irresponsibly, and letting this happen to  their own breed.

Somehow we have to go after the owner that are not taking care of their dogs...that are breeding PBs irresponsibly, and letting this happen to their own breed.

I agree, let's do it.  But we don't have to say that pit bulls are inherently human aggressive and their "true history" (her words) is to attack people.  The anti-breed ban people aren't going have a strong desire to compromise with people who say things that are totally false, like:

when someone breeds one to be human aggressive and the puppy therefore is the same way, and that puppy later has a pup who is the same way, it is spreading..........

......Is it impossible that the natural urge a lot of PBs have to fight dogs also arises with humans? The thrill of attack, and going in for the kill?

No one's really sympathetic to such hypotheses when one side is treating them like fact with NO proof.

Well said dyan!

I think you may be referring to my post and I am so glad that someone agrees. This whole thread with a few exceptions, has been worrisome to me. People, there is a problem with PB attacks. We can argue all day how big or small the problem is, if it's the breeds fault or the owners fault, if labs bite more than pits, if it's a pure pit, mixed pit or a case of mistaken identity .... it doesn't really matter- attacks happen and people and dogs are injured and people are scared. Those are the facts! If bans are not the answer - fine, then we have to do something else. Even if you educate and convince everyone who is misinformed about PBs, what have you done to solve the problem? Nothing! Finding a way to keep your breed out of the hands of those destroying your dogs is what you have to do.

As a matter of fact, I think you will find one members videos showing her dog (NOT a pit bull) acting that way towards a human, as part of training for protection sports.

That would be my boy, Strauss (German Shepherd Dog, look in the sig)
 
The video has since been taken down (simply because of space reasons on my server ), but here's some stills from it:
 
In 8 pages, people have made some very very good points, so there's really no reason for me to reiterate them.  But look at my boy.  Ban pits, and it moves onto Rotts, Dobes, and back to GSDs.  You look at those photos with his mouth gaping open, preparing to take a bite, and I'm sure that'd be enough for people to say "She's training him to be vicious!" when that is not the case.  In fact (agility issues aside, because that's something different entirely) Strauss would never put his teeth on any human...he only bites that sleeve.
 
Almost immediately after that bite session, Matt took off the sleeve, and Strauss went over and leaned on his legs for petting.  Vicious dog my eye.  Not only do these bans have an effect on FAMILIES, but they have an effect on breeds as a whole, because breeds like mine, who use schutzhund as a breeding test, can be watered down to disgusting proportions, so JQ Dumbhead can deal with it the "easy way" (aka, not having to educate themselves).  It's detrimental to the breed in more ways than one!
 
And then there's Lola:

Lola is a rescue, and her mom has her, and a mixed breed dog.  She does schutzhund with both...sort of.  She has given up doing bitework with Lola, because Lola....is TOO FRIENDLY!!!  She won't bite the helper!  She outright refuses!  Her owner is instead going to pursue the tracking and obedience titles, and get her trained in agility.
 
I wish I could find that picture of her with the baby.  So cute[]  She's a short and squatty dog, muscular, cropped ears....sweet as all get out.

Would you, then, be able to insert the needle, euthanizing a dog who has just been attacked by one knowing that it could have been prevented? Or what about telling the parents of a child that their son/daughter is dead because of a pit bull attack? I feel more compassionate for those groups, the victims in the attacks...not the aggressors.

 
A fellow rescuer allows all her dogs to be in together. She came home one day to find her favorite foster shih tzu dead. Know who killed it? Nope, not an "evil pit bull", it was a YORKIE and another SHIH TZU. Know of 2 other stories in which a small breed dog killed another small breed dog, but I dont think you really care.
 
I feel bad for the people whose child got killed by a Pomeranian as well. And the kids who were badly bitten in the face by a Yorkie or a Poodle.
 
Hm...Looks like Irish Setters arent very nice dogs either: [linkhttp://www.littlefriendsranch.com/viscous_dog_attacks.htm]http://www.littlefriendsranch.com/viscous_dog_attacks.htm[/link]
 
Feel sorry for this kid: [linkhttp://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2007/May/Totscarred%20for%20life%20JRT%200307.pdf]http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2007/May/Totscarred%20for%20life%20JRT%200307.pdf[/link]
  I know you wont believe us, I just wish you would so some research. Havent you ever heard the saying not to believe everything that you read or see on TV? That saying is around because it is true. Stop and think for a minute.  

ORIGINAL: IrishSetterGrl

*shakes head* I'm going to quit discussing this, not because I'm "giving up" but because this has turned into everyone looking for little errors in my posts instead of actually discussing the issue at hand.

I have never pointed out little errors in your posts.  And yet, of all the posts here, it is MINE that you have chosen largely to ignore.

The irony here is that I HAVE the dogs you're talking about, and yet you completely discount my experience.  How is it that you choose to believe an anonymous internet source over actual, physical, personal experience?  You have me, right here, telling your my experience and sharing my knowledge with you, but because it's not what you want to hear, you have completely ignored it.

Let me make something perfectly clear to you:  I am willing to jump in front of a moving truck to save the lives of my dogs.  They mean everything to me; they are my family, and, to me, they're just dogs.  Their breeds are completely irrelevant to me when they're curled up next to me in bed.

I will fight this fight until the day I die.  It will NEVER get old for me. 

There is a very simple solution to your wish for a breed ban:  move somewhere where there is one.  Easy.  And when that gets overturned because its completely unconstitutional and it violates basic American values, I guess you can move to China, where they murder dogs in the street with sticks.

And know this:  every single time you raise your voice on this issue, I will be right there waiting to refute your statements with personal experience.  That's how much I care.  I will never stand silently by while someone attempts to damage the reputation of my family or take the lives of my dogs.  Never.  How about you?
 
ETA thank you to everyone who complimented my first post.  It means a lot to me.

Let me make something perfectly clear to you: I am willing to jump in front of a moving truck to save the lives of my dogs.

I feel the same way about my dogs.  They are not just dogs to me, they are members of my family.  No matter what people say or think about my dogs, I will never give them up!  I've owned a Greman Shep/Chow mix before.  The dog was a good dog with adults, not children.  Well, one day he tried to attack my daughter.  I was right there and managed to catch him before he got her.  I took him to the animal shelter.  Now, had this dog gotten ahold of Madison, I would have killed it myself.  But, no harm was done and I explained to the shelter that he was not good with children.  Keep in mind what breeds he was mixed with, even though he would have hurt Maddy if he could have got to her, I wouldn't want someone to ban these breeds.  Not every dog from a single breed is like this.  I might also mention that we got him when he was about 5 months old and he was NEVER socialized

I'd also like to add that my breed, the German Shepherd Dog, is a "tweener" in the eyes of the public.  I either get "OMG!  What WONDERFUL dogs!  They do SO much for the community!" citing their (heavy) involvement in SAR, drug detection, bomb detection, military service, therapy work, Service Dog work, and general K9 patrol work, or I get "OMG!  What an awful VICIOUS Breed!  He'll turn on you at any moment!"
 
My breed is purposely bred to show certain characteristics of aggression.  One of those characteristics of aggression is, to a degree, human aggression.  The German Shepherd Dog is meant to be aloof and wary of strangers, and one of the reasons they're so successful as protection animals, is because they are willing to carry through with biting a human.  A Pit in general, is not.
 
There are GREAT pits that I know from club that would honestly love to play with Strauss.  I don't let Strauss play with them, not because I don't trust THEM, but because I don't trust HIM.  Strauss can be quite the bully.  He's not dog aggressive, but in play, he likes to be the boss, and tends to push things too far, and I don't want to risk HIM starting something with the pit and have EITHER of them blamed (even though I'm sure the pit would take the brunt of the blame), because both breeds have a bad reputation.
 
All that does is add fuel to the fire of the twits that think all pits are evil.  "I bet the pit started it!" is what I'd hear, even if I had it on video tape and wrote letters and came forward on the news and said "My German Shepherd started it!" "Well the pit must have instigated in SOMEHOW!"
 
People don't WANT to put the blame on somebody else.  They'll make excuse after excuse to blame it on the pit.
 
I personally don't trust Chow Chows.  Not to say there aren't some nice ones, but I've been bitten by Chows and had friends nearly bitten by Chows.  This isn't to say they're a bad breed.  They're a good breed for the right person.  One of the reasons Chows make me so nervous is because I know they're not at the forefront for good eyesight, so I'm always worried I'm going to startle them by doing something they couldn't see, and end up with another nasty bite.
 
I think people like Lori are brave, courageous good people that end up with strong leadership skills.  My breed takes strong leadership skills, but nowhere near what a Chow Chow does, IMO.
 
My other GSD plays just fine offlead with anybody, and he's had a hearty romp and frolic with several different pitties.  The only rule I have in general, is that I do not allow my dogs to play with more than one dog at a time, because in the event that somebody DOES get snarky, I don't want to have to deal with pack mentality and everybody ganging up on one dog (no matter what the breed).  It's easier to pull apart two dogs going at it than it is five (which is another reason I don't go to dog parks).
 
I don't like it that they cite "pit type" instead of APBT, Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, etc.  I don't like it that MY GSD has been NAILD by the neighbor's Golden Retriever on three separate ocassions, and people act like it is all the Shepherd's fault.  My Shepherd was on the RIGHT side of my bike on the RIGHT side of the street when the neighbor's Golden charged out of their garage, ran across the street, and lit into him.  Three times.
 
Yet my breed is on insurance lists as "not allowable".
 
I don't like it that a friend of mine, who has two very sweet Bull Terriers, was accosted in a pet store parking lot because she was bringing in her "Vicious Pit Bulls".  Ok, Kobi is just in love with everybody, and Oreo quite honestly is too stupid to hurt a fly.
 
I don't like it that somebody in a puppy class I had called the pitty puppy in the class "vicious" when I said "Ouch!" in my high pitched "Nono, that's too rough" voice when the pup nipped me.  It was an 8 week old BABY!  She wasn't showing aggression, she was in the midst of learning how to play properly with a human (playbowing, bouncing, tail wagging, and everything).  Did she draw blood?  Yeah.  But those puppy teeth are SHARP!  I've been punched in the face and BITTEN by a nasty retriever mix puppy that hadn't been properly socialized (Was in the same class as the pit puppy).  That same retriever mix but the next class helper on the hand.  That dog was asked to leave, and to seek a behaviorist.
 
Guess which puppy graduated at the top of the puppy class?  You got it.  Baby Girl, the Pit Bull Terrier.
 
Her dad fit the stereotype perfectly.  Big, burly black man, brought his pit pup in wearing a pink spike collar.  We thought "Oh this is just great..." ....shame on us for judging that way.  He is an EXCELLENT dog father, and probably worked harder than anybody in the class to raise his dog correctly.  Baby Girl is about 2ish now....awesome dog.

ORIGINAL: badrap

ORIGINAL: IrishSetterGrl

*shakes head* I'm going to quit discussing this, not because I'm "giving up" but because this has turned into everyone looking for little errors in my posts instead of actually discussing the issue at hand.

I have never pointed out little errors in your posts.  And yet, of all the posts here, it is MINE that you have chosen largely to ignore.

The irony here is that I HAVE the dogs you're talking about, and yet you completely discount my experience.  How is it that you choose to believe an anonymous internet source over actual, physical, personal experience?  You have me, right here, telling your my experience and sharing my knowledge with you, but because it's not what you want to hear, you have completely ignored it.

Let me make something perfectly clear to you:  I am willing to jump in front of a moving truck to save the lives of my dogs.  They mean everything to me; they are my family, and, to me, they're just dogs.  Their breeds are completely irrelevant to me when they're curled up next to me in bed.

I will fight this fight until the day I die.  It will NEVER get old for me. 

There is a very simple solution to your wish for a breed ban:  move somewhere where there is one.  Easy.  And when that gets overturned because its completely unconstitutional and it violates basic American values, I guess you can move to China, where they murder dogs in the street with sticks.

And know this:  every single time you raise your voice on this issue, I will be right there waiting to refute your statements with personal experience.  That's how much I care.  I will never stand silently by while someone attempts to damage the reputation of my family or take the lives of my dogs.  Never.  How about you?

ETA thank you to everyone who complimented my first post.  It means a lot to me.

I will be right there with you, Badrap! I fought this (and WON!) in my town and completely changed my insurance agent's view on bull breeds based upon my dog.

I use Gypsy to socialize dogs who are dog aggressive in my training classes.  She has never been a problem with ANY of them.  Can you honestly believe that I would have her around a client's dog who is PAYING for my professional services if I thought there was any doubt of Gypsy's temperment?

The reason I get soooo irritated with this is that I (along with all bully owners) must defend our dogs on a daily basis.  We have been yelled at, ostracised and, in general made to feel like second class citizens. You call my dog a vicious killer, yet you won't come to see our dogs in any working situations, showing in conformation, being a therapy dog or anything else. There are Pit drug dogs who work with police agencies, for Pete's sake!

There are three things of mine you DON'T want to mess with: my kids, my dog and my car. I will defend the first two with my last breath. This is American and we are innocent until being proven guilty, NOT the other way around.

I think it very sad that the OP has left this thread without addressing some of the very valid points that were put forward from sooner, badrap, polarexpress et al....

I would like to know what they thought of the "conclusions" at the bottom of the source they cited.  I would also like to know what they would think if it transpired that all the bites that were thought to be by PBs were actually by Labs.... would the pro-BSL people happily switch their law and their fear to labs and forgive the pitts completely?  I'm speculating but I think not.  I say this because I think much of the fear of bully breeds is drummed in by society, it's hype, it's habit and for the most part it is irrational.  The ban is a kneejerk reaction to that fear rather than a genuine desire to fix a problem.  If the desire to solve the problem were there they could see logically that the ban is likely to be ineffective and other measures would be better (mandatory s/n, permits, disallowing criminals from dog ownership etc etc....)  My main gripe about BSL is that it only attacks a small part of the problem.  ALL KINDS of dogs bite!  The WHOLE issue needs to be addressed.  And the other measures would also help to deal with other dog related problems, like animal cruelty and over population, which the ban itself would not do.

Something does need to be done about dangerous dogs (no matter what the breed).... we all agree on that.  But BSL is never the answer.

Perhaps it's a moot point now

http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=368753

[]

Well, it may be a moot point with the OP (to my great suprise and pleasure), but I don't think that, in general, this debate was a moot point.[]
 
I can always learn from people who disagree with me, and knowledge is power.  I will remember everything put forth by the OP and the others who expressed concern about the breed.  People's fears, while not necessarily rational, are always relevant and deserve to be heard.  If I don't know what you're (communal "you") afraid of, then I can't address it.
 
Let's hope this unexpected turn of events for the OP can be a bit of a lesson to lurkers who might have been too afraid to post here for fear of being flamed.
 
To those people- I am always willing to have this discussion via PM if it makes you uncomfortable to post in public.