What happens when you take your dog to the pound

    • Gold Top Dog
    The fact that there is legislation against child pornography and prostitution shows you can legislate morality.


    The only way morality can be legislated, is if those who want to be led (to morals) obey the laws. Those who don't care about morals, or the laws for that matter, won't blink an eye and will continue to break the law. The fact that we still have child molesters and prostitues being arrested, shows me that the law didn't do anything to induce those people to be moral. Sheesh, Dateline's Predator series shows that people know it is against the law but are still going to do what they want. You can't legislate morality for the socially unconscious.

    -Amy
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: mrv

    I responded because of the link to AB 1634.  I am not willing to support poorly written legislation that will negatively impact the health of a breeding population.  I am not willing to support legislation that will be unlikely target irresponsible owners.  I would support leveled licensing and enforcement.  I would support money being allocated to low cost spay neuter clinics.  I do support training for shelter dogs ( which we do every year and cut the cost of training in half for any shelter or rescue dog).

    Mandatory spay neuter legislation does not address the problem of owner turn ins.  It will be an unfunded mandate that people who are the primary source of the problem will ignore.

    I do not support legislation that allows commercial breeders to continue to produce animals without restriction beyond USDAA requirements.

    The main reason folks with whom I correspond are against the bill has to do with the fact the early spay neuter procedures go against any good animal husbandry.  You can not evaluate a puppy that young for fitness for breeding, you can not test for genetic diseases that occur later in development.

    I can not support a bill that has considerable backing from organizations that want to see the extinction of companion animals.  Sorry,, not going there.

     
    Why wouldn't this legislation target irresponsible owners?  That's exactly who it does target.  Right now there are innumerable ads in the classified section of the newspapers here, selling and giving away puppies.  With this legislation in place, those people certainly won't be able to do it again, because they've just exposed themselves as having intact animals.  Right now if my neighbor is producing litter after litter of unwanted cats, there's not a thing I can do about it, except scoop them up off the street after being flattened by cars.  But with this legislation I certainly could put a stop to it because this legislation would give me the tool to do so. 
     
    As for early spay/neuter impacting puppy evaluation, most breeders sell their pups at 8-12 weeks.  The early spay/neuter called for in this legislation isn't until 16 weeks.  By then a breeder would have decided the future for his/her pup, and if sold, would have issued limited registration so that buyers wouldn't be breeding his dogs irresponsibly.  If you're keeping the dog, then you would assumably be training it for competition and would be exempt.
     
    I agree with you about the need to stop commercial breeders, but this legislation requires breeders to compete with their dogs, and how many commercial breeders do that?  If they are, then why isn't it being addressed through the registries.  We have a big problem here in California that we're trying to fix.  As a breeder, why aren't you doing more on the national front to stop commercial breeders?  Why is Andrew Hunte of the Hunte Corporation - the biggest puppymiller out there - now a member of the German Shepherd Club of America? 
     
    As for who supports this bill, even a broken clock is right twice a day.  This bill is also supported by the association of animal shelter managers, as well as a large part of the rescue community.  We need the help of this bill.
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog
    DogAdvocat - welcome to the forum.  I am wondering if you've ever bred dogs.  This is genuinely not to spark a battle, I am just wondering if you have that experience in your background.
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: agilebasenji

    From the article:
    About 50% of all of the dogs that are "owner surrenders” or "strays” that come into my shelter are purebred dogs. The most common excuses I hear are:
    We are moving and we can't take our dog (or cat). Really? Where are you moving to that doesn't allow pets? The dog got bigger than we thought it would. How big did you think a German Shepherd would get? We don't have time for her. Really? I work a 10-12 hour day and still have time for my 6 dogs! She's tearing up our yard. How about bringing her inside, making her a part of your family?

    Uhm, so AB1634 is going to eliminate human stupidity?  A person who doesn't value their dog living in Ca with a large dog who is going to move to another city is suddenly NOT going to take thier dog to the pound because of this law?  I don't get it.

     
    No, it won't eliminate human stupidity, but I think it will eliminate the irresponsible breeder that sold the dog to the person turning it into the shelter.  Responsible breeders don't sell to idiots.  They screen carefully and they are there to take their dogs back if necessary.  Responsible breeders should be the only source for getting a dog, and if they were, then only responsible owners would own dogs.  AB1634 will help achieve that by getting rid of irresponsible breeders.  This bill was patterned after a successful law enacted in Santa Cruz, California where they subsequently had a 68% drop in shelter intake.  That's a 68% drop in stupid reasons for relinquishing a dog to a shelter.  The less dogs out there, not only are there less to abandon, but I think the balance will be valued more.
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog
    How do they know you have one to license?

    you can easily hide that you have a dog.  But the police have the right to stop any dog on the street to verify licensing.  Also happens when strays are picked up, or if there are any public complaints (noise/neglect/etc).
     
    side-note, but to support the cause.. I mis-read this the first time, thinking it said how do "you" know you have to license your dog (in my town), and here's my answer:  When you register your car, part of that requires a visit to the city offices - where the dog license protocols are posted all over the place.  Also, when you vaccinate and/or spay/neuter it's mentioned by the vet.  (I realize that presumes people are bringing their dogs to the vet, but it's there....)  Definitely, people cannot drive their cars if they're not registered, and they can't register without visiting the town office, and they can't visit the town office w/out seeing several signs about licensing dogs. 

    And, again, that public-access channel broadcasts reminders all year long - but ramps it up at renewal time in the spring.  I suppose a person who doesn't bring their dogs to the vet, doesn't drive a car, and doesn't watch TV or read the newspaper (where it's also published), and doesn't get stopped by a police officer could probably miss their obligation to register...  But as they say, ignorance of the law doesn't preclude you from following it. 
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: stardancnminpin

    The fact that there is legislation against child pornography and prostitution shows you can legislate morality.


    The only way morality can be legislated, is if those who want to be led (to morals) obey the laws. Those who don't care about morals, or the laws for that matter, won't blink an eye and will continue to break the law. The fact that we still have child molesters and prostitues being arrested, shows me that the law didn't do anything to induce those people to be moral. Sheesh, Dateline's Predator series shows that people know it is against the law but are still going to do what they want. You can't legislate morality for the socially unconscious.

    -Amy


     
    But that's like saying that the only way speed limits can be legislated is if those that want to drive at 65mph obey the law.  The fact is that mandated speed limits keep the honest people honest and they give tools to law enforcement to stop those that break the law.  Without legislation, anyone could go any speed they liked, and the ones going 120mph can claim they are exercising their legal right to go as fast as they want.  We may not be able to stop everyone that breaks a law, but would you advocate removing laws on murder, simply because not all murderers are caught?
     
    So yes, morality can be legislated and those that act immorally risk having penalties to pay.
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: miranadobe

    DogAdvocat - welcome to the forum.  I am wondering if you've ever bred dogs.  This is genuinely not to spark a battle, I am just wondering if you have that experience in your background.

     
    Thank you for the welcome. [:D]  No, I've never bred dogs, though I almost made that mistake once with a pet shop dachshund who later developed back problems and eventually died of pancreatic failure at the age of 10, but thankfully the fates intervened and it never happened.  This was many moons ago, and I use that experience as one of the many that help me to understand what problems ignorance can cause.  I'd never forgive myself if I'd passed on my beloved dog's inheritable health issues to his puppies, and their puppies, etc.
     
    For the last 20+ years I've been involved in the rescue community in California, and most of my knowledge comes from that as well as in-depth discussions with breeders who promote responsible breeding.  I've also been involved in one puppy mill closure and visited 2 others, and have done volunteer work in a rescue kennel for several years.  I strongly support rescue, and have little tolerance for pet shops that sell puppies, for irresponsible breeding, and for those who promote or enable fads that would increase puppymilling.
    • Gold Top Dog
    You know, these discussions always get me more than a little irratated, which is one reason I usually stay out of them. Statements get misconstrued, wording is personal and without body language, and people interpret it differently. But, I made a statement, and I feel like you have turned it around and made it look like I am against all laws because 'murder isn't stopped'. What I am against, is honest people being made to pay for the actions of the dishonest to the point that we are losing our rights to live normally. Yes, that is part of society, but I am tired of my 'allowed, designated' rights being driven into smaller and smaller boxes. (read heaps of anger here!) I tow the line, and pay the cost (literally) for those who don't give a hairy rats a$$ about morals or the law.

    My point about 'morality' and 'legislate law' is not that you throw the baby out with the bathwater. My point is, that repeat offenders occur. Just because there is a law, and some people follow it, does not mean that it will "get" those who don't care to begin with. Yes, the law means there are penalties for breaking it, but when you have repeat offender after repeat offender - has the law 'legislated morality' for them? Do they 'get' what the law is punishing them for?  That is what I mean when I say you can't legislate morality for those who don't have morals to begin with. Education, not legislation will have a greater impact on changing a problem in my opinion.

    With irresponsible owners and breeders, you have repeat offenders. How many people get a dog, have a problem, dump it, then get another dog? Rinse, repeat. Breeders who have puppies either for income, or just because they don't care - are not going to care about a law, and suddenly get 'Moral'. Consequences? Sure, but are those that the law is supposed to target actually going to be the ones paying those consequences? That is the question being asked, and the one that you say THIS law will stop. Responsible owners (me) are saying, no, the repeat offenders of irresponsibility will not be the ones paying the consequences for their behavior. Responsible owners will be.

    My opinion, just like you have yours. I am not telling you that yours is wrong, or that you can't have it. So I ask the same courtesy. I believe this is still America.

    Amy
    • Silver
    When you say that morality can't be legislated, you are stating it as a fact, but it's wrong because morality is legislated all the time.  You could say that morality shouldn't be legislated, and that would be your opinion, which you have a right to.  I can not tell you your opinion is wrong, though I can give my opposing opinion, but fact is fact, and morality is and can be legislated.
     
    As for whether or not it's fair to enact legislation that would also effect the responsible people -- if they were responsible, they won't be effected at all.  My dogs are all spayed/neutered, and therefore this bill will not effect me as a pet owner at all.  It's those that are irresponsible that it will effect, and that includes breeders who are currently not following licensing regulations and prevailing sales tax laws.
    • Gold Top Dog
    My last post on this topic:

    You Can't Legislate Morality
    "...
    [font="times new roman"]what's meant is that you cannot legislate the intentions of the heart. We cannot pass a law that changes a man's heart. By passing a law you cannot make a bad man good...."

    You see it as passing a law. I see it as not changing the behavior of the irresponsible. My opinion, your opinion, but facts, as you say, are facts. And not just yours.

    I do not agree with this law. I will never agree with mandatory spay/neuter laws. I do not believe someone other than myself and my vet has the right to make a decision regarding a surgery for my animal. I will fight for my right to make decisions for my pets.

    Amy
    [/font]
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: stardancnminpin

    [/color]My last post on this topic:

    You Can't Legislate Morality
    "...
    [/color][font="times new roman"]what's meant is that you cannot legislate the intentions of the heart. We cannot pass a law that changes a man's heart. By passing a law you cannot make a bad man good...."

    You see it as passing a law. I see it as not changing the behavior of the irresponsible. My opinion, your opinion, but facts, as you say, are facts. And not just yours.

    I do not agree with this law. I will never agree with mandatory spay/neuter laws. I do not believe someone other than myself and my vet has the right to make a decision regarding a surgery for my animal. I will fight for my right to make decisions for my pets.

    Amy


     
    That's fair, but unfortunately, as a California taxpayer, I have to help pay for the fallout of making that choice.  I have to pay part of the millions of dollars it takes to house and euthanize dogs coming from people who chose not to spay/neuter.  Morally, I have to support the cost of rescuing dogs that should have never been born, but that I can't allow to suffer and die.  So if you want the right to keep your dog intact, then you should have to pay the cost, not me.
    • Gold Top Dog
    This is a personally interesting topic because the state next door to me is currently looking at legislation very similiar to the CA bill.

    My concern is the impact of a bill written by folks who really do not understand animal husbandry.

    I would propose lets find some common ground.  All individuals would like to see shelter deaths decreased.  Most individuals would like to see pet options (with respect to sources) stay variable (breeders or rescues/shelters).  Increases in pet ownership responsibility is a worthy goal.

    Issues of contention with the current legislation.
    Early spay neuter of every animal in a community would take considerable manpower; read that salary and benefits of a civil servant.  Being a civil servant in the public school system, that aint cheap.  So, does any current legislation have adequate funding provisions.  If not it is an unfunded mandate.  Unfunded mandates rarely result in the intented outcomes, because other issues take priority within a budget.  Which municipality will lay off fire fighters or police personnel to check up on licenses?

    Early spay neuter can have health problems with competition/working animals and increasing evidence suggests temperment issues primarily phobic reactions and sound sensitivity.  The studies are currently being conducted.

    Mandatory spay neuter programs blanketly target all breeding program including those of people with breeds that should not be bred prior to ages 2-3 due to health problems.

    Many of the mandatory spay neuter bills are supported financially by groups who have a very different agenda than the one printed on paper.  Political support can easily transfer to expectations of votes to support the agendas of those financial contributers.  I know when I support a political campaign, I expect that.

    I have absolutely no problem with community legislation to address tracking of pet ownership.  I have no problem with following up on every ad on puppies for sale to look for a breeding permit.  I have no problem with checking for licensing in ways such as stated by Mirandadobe.  In my community animal control personnel can ask for license proof at any time in any place.  But they dont, because there is not adequate financial support for enforcement.

    In CA the financial situation is critical in many public service areas, I fail to see any evidence that this legislation will be funded to the level it will make any impact.  Although I am not able to recall the county that implemented such a program, but their euthansia numbers went up.

    As to commercial breeders, they will just add any cost to price of the puppy and continue on their merry money making way producing crap dogs that break peoples hearts and pocket books, without offering life long support and first right of refusal returns as found in responsible breeder contracts.

    There are plenty of folks disregarding the current laws in place... Fund those first, then lets look at the data.  If the data has not changed positively, then I would consider supporting a well written law,,,, not the cobbled together piece of legislation that will prevent me from every coming to CA and I may just have to learn to like wines from other states.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

    It seems to me that the reason that we haven't solved the pet overpopulation and shelter problem yet is that we target the wrong people for education - the puppy buyer.
     

    sorry...this just made me giggle.


    Why do you think that is funny? Ialso wonder how many dogs and cats were killed in shelters while people were reading this thread?  

    • Gold Top Dog
    stardancnminpin... FWIW... i agree with you that morality cannot be legislated. take for instance prohibition, there were all kinds of laws in place to stop people from buying and consuming alcohol. it didnt work. sure there were some arrests, but people who wanted to drink still did it.

    think about it like this... is there anything you do in your day-to-day life that might be considered immoral by some? would you still do it if there were a law against it?

    i think the people who are in favor of this law or similar ones, should ask themselves what are the current laws in regard to dog ownership in my area? are these laws being enforced? my guess is no. so why would any further laws be enforced? or can they be enforced? in my state there are strict littering laws (as i am sure there are in most states). so why is there still trash on the side of the road? my opinion is it is either lack of enforcement or ability to enforce.

    badrap... i get what you are saying too. when we adopted amelia, i didnt know what the laws were in regards to registering a dog. actually, it took a good bit of research on my part to find out. luckily all that is required here is to stay current with your yearly shots. however, i recently found out that the neighboring town (less than 1 mile from our house) has additional fees you have to pay if you live inside the city limits. this isnt prominently published anywhere. i stumbled on it via a google search for something unrelated. for any law to be effective there at the very least has to be public awareness.
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: mrv

    This is a personally interesting topic because the state next door to me is currently looking at legislation very similiar to the CA bill.

    My concern is the impact of a bill written by folks who really do not understand animal husbandry.

    I would propose lets find some common ground.  All individuals would like to see shelter deaths decreased.  Most individuals would like to see pet options (with respect to sources) stay variable (breeders or rescues/shelters).  Increases in pet ownership responsibility is a worthy goal.

    Issues of contention with the current legislation.
    Early spay neuter of every animal in a community would take considerable manpower; read that salary and benefits of a civil servant.  Being a civil servant in the public school system, that aint cheap.  So, does any current legislation have adequate funding provisions.  If not it is an unfunded mandate.  Unfunded mandates rarely result in the intented outcomes, because other issues take priority within a budget.  Which municipality will lay off fire fighters or police personnel to check up on licenses?

    Early spay neuter can have health problems with competition/working animals and increasing evidence suggests temperment issues primarily phobic reactions and sound sensitivity.  The studies are currently being conducted.

    Mandatory spay neuter programs blanketly target all breeding program including those of people with breeds that should not be bred prior to ages 2-3 due to health problems.

    Many of the mandatory spay neuter bills are supported financially by groups who have a very different agenda than the one printed on paper.  Political support can easily transfer to expectations of votes to support the agendas of those financial contributers.  I know when I support a political campaign, I expect that.

    I have absolutely no problem with community legislation to address tracking of pet ownership.  I have no problem with following up on every ad on puppies for sale to look for a breeding permit.  I have no problem with checking for licensing in ways such as stated by Mirandadobe.  In my community animal control personnel can ask for license proof at any time in any place.  But they dont, because there is not adequate financial support for enforcement.

    In CA the financial situation is critical in many public service areas, I fail to see any evidence that this legislation will be funded to the level it will make any impact.  Although I am not able to recall the county that implemented such a program, but their euthansia numbers went up.

    As to commercial breeders, they will just add any cost to price of the puppy and continue on their merry money making way producing crap dogs that break peoples hearts and pocket books, without offering life long support and first right of refusal returns as found in responsible breeder contracts.

    There are plenty of folks disregarding the current laws in place... Fund those first, then lets look at the data.  If the data has not changed positively, then I would consider supporting a well written law,,,, not the cobbled together piece of legislation that will prevent me from every coming to CA and I may just have to learn to like wines from other states.

     
    One of the original authors of the California bill was Ed Boks, who is the head of the Los Angeles Animal Services department.  I would wonder what kind of animal husbandry qualifications he would need to satisfy you that he knows what he's doing.  But assuming for the moment that he doesn't, why is it that no legislation to eliminate irresponsible breeding is ever written by those who are proficient in animal husbandry?  Why is it that the AKC and mustered breed clubs are always fighting legislation and never proposing any of their own?  Why is it that in the past, when they have fought legislation, when it's over, they go back to business as usual?  I've even heard complaints that the authors of the various bills won't work with breeders, and yet the answer to that seems plain as day - breeders should step in and do it themselves. 
     
    You're right, early s/n would take considerable manpower, but what makes you think that it needs to be done by civil servants?  We already have a lot of free and low-cost spay/neuter programs in California, but what we don't have is a mandate saying that people should use them.  As rescue, I'd much rather put my own money, and fund raising monies, into spay/neuter programs than into shelters for killing unwanted pets.  We have a great rescue community in California, but what we don't have is places to put the animals, and enough homes to put them in, because there are just too many.  It makes a lot more sense monetarily to spay/neuter one dog than to have to deal with it's 10 offspring.
     
    You say early s/n can have health and temperament problems, and you base that on studies that have not been completed yet?  The fact is that the AVMA supports early spay/neuter.  In rescue, we've been doing it for well over a decade and though it's anecdotal, are not seeing the problems you claim.  On the other hand, spay/neuter at 4 months (which isn't even all that early compared to the 8 weeks that many shelters successfully do early s/n) insures that a dog won't go into heat and won't increase the risk of reproductive cancers.
     
    Mandatory s/n programs do not target breeding programs of breeds that should not be bred due to health problems at any age because all the owner has to do is get their vet to issue a statement that the dog isn't a viable candidate for s/n. 
     
    I don't understand your comment on political support at all.  Are you saying that you support candidates that can be bought?  I sure don't.  It is a concern though, with AB1634, that those who oppose it are in a position to offer such support - groups like PIJAC.  Was that the group that concerned you?
     
    Tracking pet ownership here is not the problem.  Los Angeles, for instance, for years and years, depended on meter readers (electricity/gas) to take note of homes that have dogs.  Vets require dogs to have rabies shots in order to provide vet services, and then they turned proof of those shots over to the city of L.A. who then issued a notice for licensing.  If someone doesn't pay their license, after a couple of warnings, a warrant is issued.  Licensing isn't the problem - the problem is that people have the legal right to produce as many litters as they see fit, even if it means they have 10 litters a year and dump them all at the shelter each time.  That needs to be stopped, and education alone won't do it because some people refuse to be educated.
     
    The city this law was based on was Santa Cruz, and the euthanasia did not go up, their intace went down 68%.  And yes, the financial situation in CA isn't good, but part of that is because millions of dollars are spent sheltering and killing unwanted pets.  Those millions of dollars that are earmarked for shelters already, can be used to implement this law.
     
    You say that commercial breeders will add any cost to the price of the puppy - but hobby breeders or responsible breeders, or whatever you want to call them, can do the same exact thing.
     
    What current laws are you speaking of?  There certainly aren't any about producing unwanted animals, or breeding animals to be placed in homes that will dump them on the shelter system.  And I'm sorry that this piece of legislation might keep you from drinking our wine, or coming here, but frankly, that's not as important to me as reducing the shelter deaths.