Is Tail Docking Dog Torture?

pudel

So for what reasons, other than cosmetics, do you crop and dock your min pins?

I know I shouldn't, but I'm going to respond. And with another question. What reason, other than cosmetic, do you dye your poodle pink? Aren't you worried about a reaction to the hair dye and future health problems? Or that your dog might not be able to communicate correctly with other dogs since his fur is not a normal dog color?

Seriously, what business is it of yours if I dock/crop for cosmetic reasons? Really and truly - what makes my dogs your concern if they are being taken care of, loved into silliness, vetted correctly, have more blankets and toys than they can use in one day - I can keep going on and on. The point is, it is MY choice to like the looks, personality, and disposition of Miniature Pinschers. If their breed standard calls for docked tails and cropped ears and I want to follow that standard - and I do it under the care of a vet - what business is it of yours or anyone else's?

I don't agree with women who take their newborn daughters and have their ears pierced  - for COSMETIC purposes only. I don't raise all sorts of ruckus and badger our law makers to pass laws to prohibit their behavior just because I don't like it. Admit it, our society is so enamored of looks, that we do an unholy number of cosmetic procedures to ourselves and our children. I don't see laws being passed to prohibit those actions/choices which are painful and have risks of complications. But I digress.

Have you ever had a Miniature Pinscher? Do you even know their history and what they were/are bred to do? My girls are ratters, bug catchers, hole diggers, squirrel chasers (and hopeful catchers), with a rough and tumble play style that would make a big dog blush. Tails and ears have been docked/cropped for centuries - so what is wrong with following tradition in a regal breed even if they now live in the lap of luxury? They still perform their original purpose of rodent eliminator. Tails and ears get damaged. If docking/cropping prevents worse injuries, than what is wrong with preemptive vet care?

I know you are now going to come in with statements about dogs in England/Australia who no longer crop/dock having any of these problems - but I disagree. They are seeing more injuries in those breeds that were once docked/cropped.

But the whole point of my disagreement with "your" dislike and disdain of my choice to dock/crop is that You DO NOT have the right to take away my rights simply because you don't like it. I am not hurting you or yours. I am also not hurting my dogs with my choices whether it is done due to the purpose of the breed or due to cosmetics.

jenns

miranadobe

Really, we have ALL mentioned the pain that dogs can feel in their ears, so I am not disputing that (I don't see anyone else doing it, either.)  My comment was saying you cannot call a dog ear equivalent to a human ear. 

You're saying you are not disputing that dog's feel pain in their ears, so what point are you trying to make by stating a  dog's ear is not equilavent to a humans ear? They either feel pain or they don't.

Let's review: dogs feel pain in their ears (although some here don't "buy" that cropping may avoid that pain by enhancing air circulation, or eliminating nasty hematomas, but, heck, since we're not "selling" anything, I don't care what people want to "buy".) 

But I am not saying dogs feel this serious pain as a result of ear cropping done under anesthesia by a licensed, skilled veterinarian, that you claim. The start of this tangent was you quoted me saying that you think your ear pain as a result of cosmetic surgery was equivalent to a puppy ear cropping which I decline to believe is accurate.  My opinion.

boredpuppy08

Ah, I don't mean the initial screams when it was done - I mean they screamed and screetched for 3 straight days after, so much so that they lost weight and weren't nursing as well as they had previously. Finally the swelling subsided in the cut areas, in their case the dewclaws and tails, and they stopped screaming and went back to the business of eating and growing. I think there should be a theory on this really - if tactile stimulation helps dogs develop more quickly, I forget what it's called but it consists of exposing them to different positions, cold, touching paws - then such a massive amount of pain at such a young age, what effect does *that* have on a dog? Doesn't it teach them, profoundly, that there is pain in the world at an age much before they would ever incounter *real* pain? Does it create more fearful dogs?

If the above is accurate, someone did something very wrong. The things you describe are not typical reactions to tail docking.

Bottom line is Tail Docking, Dew Claw Removal, ear cropping, spay, and neuter are all elective procedures. If you make are against cropping and docking on a basis of believing it is torture to the animal and not neccessary, then well you should hold the same beliefs on spay and neuter. Even more so really. Spay and neuter are elective procedures completely un neccessary to prevent unwanted pregnancies in dogs. All it takes is responsible ownership. Furthermore, spay and neuter are more invasive than both docking and cropping and aside from cropping after care, they have a longer recovery time.

Either all these procedures are torture or non of them are. Any other point of view and you are simply twisting and justifying things to suit your personal agendas.

JohnnyBandit

Either all these procedures are torture or non of them are. Any other point of view and you are simply twisting and justifying things to suit your personal agendas.

I know I didn't put it that way, myself. I do think if people want to clip and dock, I can't complain too much since I spay and neuter. Let me be a snot and point out that I saw a family last weekend at the Home Depot parking lot giving away free puppies. That hoping for people maintaining intact pets without litters hasn't worked out so well, around here.

JohnnyBandit

Bottom line is Tail Docking, Dew Claw Removal, ear cropping, spay, and neuter are all elective procedures. If you make are against cropping and docking on a basis of believing it is torture to the animal and not neccessary, then well you should hold the same beliefs on spay and neuter. Even more so really. Spay and neuter are elective procedures completely un neccessary to prevent unwanted pregnancies in dogs. All it takes is responsible ownership. Furthermore, spay and neuter are more invasive than both docking and cropping and aside from cropping after care, they have a longer recovery time.

 

Either all these procedures are torture or non of them are. Any other point of view and you are simply twisting and justifying things to suit your personal agendas.

I view spaying and neutering as an unfortuanate reality that comes along with our desire to share our lives with dogs.  The result of NOT doing it would be simply disasterous, and IS disasterous to millions of dogs.  I just don't view cropping, docking, debarking etc etc  in the same light.  People can make all the claims they want about ear infections and tail injuries, but the reason it is done still comes down to cosmetics (i.e. breed standards), especially with ear cropping.  This is admittedly the case with the doberman.  Here is a quote off of a doberman breeder's website that I just find really sad:

Q. Should I get the ears cropped? It seems like it hurts the dog.

A. We highly recommend that you get the ears cropped.
1.) This gives your dog that "Doberman Pinscher" look. This warns people that
you have a "Doberman" for your personal protection.
2.) The ear crop protects your investment. If something changes in your life and
you need to sell your dog, you will be able to get more money and sell the dog easier--this provides him with a better home also.

Ear cropping was originally done so people could not grab the dogs by the ears. This is now the traditional "Doberman" look. 

jenns - we all know that there are some breeders who will write unscrupulous things on their websites.  What that breeder wrote is not reflective of the DPCA culture, which is the breed club that writes the standard for Dobes.  As a matter of fact, I know exactly which breeder you took that quote from, and if you notice, they are not members of the DPCA, nor does she advertise doing ANY health testing.  (But she does advertise that she'll take your major credit card - red flag!)  She doesn't post the pedigrees of any of her dogs.  She even brags about deliberately breeding for "SUPER" sized Dobermans, which is another red flag as a bad Doberman breeder.  Forget that she claims to be the "Number one Doberman breeder in the US", which I know for a fact is completely false.

Please know that this is a discussion about more than just Doberman ear cropping (actually, I believe it was originally about tail docking), but, for reference,any of the following breeds are considered for cropping:

• Affenpinschers
• American Staffordshire Terriers
• Beaucerons
• Boston Terriers
• Bouvier des Flandres
• Boxers
• Briars
• Brussels Griffons
• Doberman Pinschers
• German Pinschers
• Giant Schnauzers
• Great Danes
• Manchester Terrier
• Miniature Pinschers
• Miniature Schnauzers
• Neopolitan Mastiffs
• Standard Manchester Terrier
• Standard Schnauzer 

The list of docked dogs is even longer:

• Affenpinschers
• Airedale Terrier
• American Cocker Spaniel
• Australian Silky 
• Australian Shepherd
• Australian Terrier
• Bouvier des Flandres
• Boxer
• Bracco Italiano
• Brittany
• Brussels Griffon
• Cane Corsa
• Clumber Spaniel
• Cocker Spaniel
• Doberman Pinscher
• English Springer Spaniel
• Fell Terrier
• Field Spaniel
• German short-haired pointer
• German wire-haired pointer
• Giant Schnauzer
• Glen of Imaal Terrier
• Irish Terrier
• Italian Spinone
• Jack Russell Terrier
• Kerry Blue Terrier
• King Charles Spaniel
• Lakeland Terrier
• Large Munsterlander (although only a tiny bit may be docked)
• Miniature Pinscher
• Miniature Poodle
• Miniature Schnauzer
• Neopolitan mastiff
• Norfolk Terrier
• Norwich Terrier
• Old English Sheepdog
• Patterdale Terrier
• Parson Jack Russell Terrier
• Pembroke Welsh Corgi
• Polish Lowland Sheepdog
• Rottweiler
• Russian Black Terrier
• Schipperke
• Schnauzer
• Sealyham Terrier
• Smooth Fox Terrier
• Soft-coated Wheaten Terrier
• Spanish Water Dog
• Standard Poodle
• Sussex Spaniel
• Swedish Vallhund
• Toy Poodle
• Vizsla
• Weimaraner
• Welsh Springer Spaniel
• Welsh Terrier
• Wire-haired Fox Terrier
• Yorkshire Terrier

 *Please, if anyone knows of others, please add them onto the list or correct the list above.  I didn't include Lucas Terrier as some may see on UK lists, because they are still in debate as a breed.

**Edited to correctly list Manchester Terrier not Toy Manchester Terrier

One correction to the list - the toy manchester terrier is not cropped, only the standard manchester, and even then the ears are allowed to be naturally erect or button.

I agree that this breeder doesn't exactly seem reputable, but regarding the quote I posted off the page - is there anything there that you or the DPCA would disagree with?

jenns

the toy manchester terrier is not cropped, only the standard manchester

Thank you for catching that - the list has been corrected.

I would disagree that anyone needs to be warned that I have a Doberman because she has her ears cropped - she is still a Doberman regardless if I hid her ears under a Santa hat.  I would also disagree that she is somehow more valuable because the ears were cropped.  In the case of this breeder specifically, it's a lame duck statement, since this woman would not be selling her dogs for conformation.  Likewise, she could not be selling them for protection sport and think they would sell better with cropped ears, because they would be limited to which countries where they could compete.  The average person buying a pet Dobe may have a personal preference on ears, but is highly unlikely to pay more for an adult dog whose ears are cropped.  Doberman rescues do not charge higher adoption fees for cropped dogs.  I do not speak for the DPCA, but I have seen DPCA members publicly denounce this particular breeder and her statements.  Like much of her website, it's overblown smoke up someone's you-know-what that has no place in good breeding of Dobes, imo. 

So, we go back to the basics of it, which are that people who crop/dock their dogs feel it is their right to do so under veterinary care.  That it is not someone else's business to tell them otherwise, because their dogs are safely, humanely, and lovingly cared for throughout either of these procedures. Bottom line, it's not torture.  Those of us who have witnessed torture of a dog, or witnessed the aftermath of torture to a dog, have a sickeningly clear understanding of just how horrific the acts can be.  Appropriate veterinary procedures of tail docking and ear cropping are not torture.

jenns

I view spaying and neutering as an unfortuanate reality that comes along with our desire to share our lives with dogs.  The result of NOT doing it would be simply disasterous, and IS disasterous to millions of dogs.  I just don't view cropping, docking, debarking etc etc  in the same light.  People can make all the claims they want about ear infections and tail injuries, but the reason it is done still comes down to cosmetics (i.e. breed standards), especially with ear cropping.  

How about this train of thought:  I just don't buy that the health benefits of neutering my pet outweigh the risk and pain my dog will suffer if I have him/her neutered. We're talking about slicing up my female dog and she won't recover overnight. I'll have a young, active dog that will be in pain, need to be confined and have special treatment until she's healed---and for what? so I won't be inconvenienced a couple of times a year? is it a good idea to have serious surgery done on my dog so I don't have to be responsible and keep her from getting pregnant when she is in heat? 

Is docking a dog's tail wrong when you honestly believe it is better for that dog's long term health and well being?  how is it so much worse than neutering a dog when you're doing it for your convenience? 

I'm not opposed to s/n, I just wanted to suggest that there is another way to look at this. 

jenns

JohnnyBandit

Bottom line is Tail Docking, Dew Claw Removal, ear cropping, spay, and neuter are all elective procedures. If you make are against cropping and docking on a basis of believing it is torture to the animal and not neccessary, then well you should hold the same beliefs on spay and neuter. Even more so really. Spay and neuter are elective procedures completely un neccessary to prevent unwanted pregnancies in dogs. All it takes is responsible ownership. Furthermore, spay and neuter are more invasive than both docking and cropping and aside from cropping after care, they have a longer recovery time.

 

Either all these procedures are torture or non of them are. Any other point of view and you are simply twisting and justifying things to suit your personal agendas.

I view spaying and neutering as an unfortuanate reality that comes along with our desire to share our lives with dogs.  The result of NOT doing it would be simply disasterous, and IS disasterous to millions of dogs.  I just don't view cropping, docking, debarking etc etc  in the same light.  People can make all the claims they want about ear infections and tail injuries, but the reason it is done still comes down to cosmetics (i.e. breed standards), especially with ear cropping.  This is admittedly the case with the doberman.  Here is a quote off of a doberman breeder's website that I just find really sad:

 

Q. Should I get the ears cropped? It seems like it hurts the dog.

A. We highly recommend that you get the ears cropped.
1.) This gives your dog that "Doberman Pinscher" look. This warns people that
you have a "Doberman" for your personal protection.
2.) The ear crop protects your investment. If something changes in your life and
you need to sell your dog, you will be able to get more money and sell the dog easier--this provides him with a better home also.

Ear cropping was originally done so people could not grab the dogs by the ears. This is now the traditional "Doberman" look. 

Whether you view spaying and neutering as an unfortunate reality does not change the fact that it is a risky elective procedure not required by responsible folks to prevent intact dogs from producing unplanned offspring. It is not difficult to control the breeding activities of an un altered dog.

The fact that there are so many dogs in shelters simply proves that you cannot force responsibility or morality.

 Both spay and neuter are elective procedures. I am not against either. But they carry risks and all they do is make things more convenient for owners. Much the way tail docking a Boxer or Rottweiler would. Makes things more simple.

I am not a huge fan of any of the docked or cropped breeds. I like many of them. But none are on my short list to own. That being said, I don't judge or try to have a say in the lives of those that choose docked and cropped breeds. Its their dog and their decision. Its the same with spay and neuter. I own one dog that is intact and one that is neutered. Those are both decisions I made. Medical decisions of pets should be made between the owner and their vet. Its really no one elses business.

JohnnyBandit

The fact that there are so many dogs in shelters simply proves that you cannot force responsibility or morality.

 

 Very well said.

Just because drugs are illegal doesn't stop thousands of people from dying from accidental OD's.... all we'll do is make people use scissors  to slice their dogs up.

Not to insinuate it's even remotely the same thing, but look at what happened when they made abortion illegal.  

By making it illegal you may actually be making it WORSE for dogs.