Reform to protect pedigree dogs

pudel

 Dogs have fur for a biological reason.  It's obvious that the lack of fur causes these poor dogs problems.  No dog should ever have to suffer from acne and sunburn for no other reason that just so people can have something that looks unique.  Why dont' we start making dogs without ears or toenails while were at it. 

 

 Should Poodles cease to exsist because their build puts them at risk for bloat?

 FWIW I can say for sure that acne is a genetic issue and seems to be able to be bred away from. I haven't known too many with acne problems honestly, the ones I knew who did have issues were all poorly bred and I have been around a ton of them. As for sunburn - shorthaired dogs with light pigment sunburn as well - ever see a white or parti Greyhound in the early summer?

 I know more Pugs with acne than Cresteds with acne, now that I think about it. The Bean had some hormonal acne, but it resolved on it's own.

    Okay! I know about Chinese Crested and their history, I was trying to point out what can happen when we let "others" make decisions regarding our favorite breeds. Traits that are historical and unique to a breed can be considered a serious health issue to someone with your dog's "best interest" in mind.

    Liesje, I wasn't picking on your choice of venue to exhibit, I commend you. It's just that if Joe Public never sees the moderate German Shepherd,with correct drives, how will he even know they exist? I will occasionally enter one of my BC in conformation for s##t and giggles because "I"enjoy it. My dogs aren't even close to what's being shown, but they are well within the written standard and I DO know how to show! Guess what, ringside loves my dogs. They usually get a round of applause even coming in dead last. I let people pet them and use the time to educate about the differences between working lines and show lines. I often have old issues of BC magazines, and make up flyers with local trial dates.

     Several people have started trying their hand at sheepdog trailing, and I often see a familar face at a trial just being a spectator. We as owners can't just sit back and say "they're" ruining my breed, we need to be out and amongst "them", with what we believe in.

dstull

    Liesje, I wasn't picking on your choice of venue to exhibit, I commend you. It's just that if Joe Public never sees the moderate German Shepherd,with correct drives, how will he even know they exist?

I don't know.  Honestly, I've never seen an American line dog around here except at AKC/UKC shows.  When I see people walking GSDs on the street they are German, working line, or BYB dogs.  I take my dogs lots of places so plenty of people can take a look if they want.  JQP also sees GSDs on cop shows and stuff like that.  What do you suggest I should be doing?

Liesje,  you and the people you show with ARE doing!! You have your dogs in the poblic eye, you've been to fun matches were the differences are obvious. This is what I wish more people were doing. When it's said that the GSD has been ruined, you and your dog's breeder can stand up a say"our's aren't".

dstull

Liesje,  you and the people you show with ARE doing!! You have your dogs in the poblic eye, you've been to fun matches were the differences are obvious. This is what I wish more people were doing. When it's said that the GSD has been ruined, you and your dog's breeder can stand up a say"our's aren't".

Right, but my situation is not unique.  My personal definition of a GOOD GSD breeder is someone who is actively training and trialing their breeding dogs, and plenty of great breeders and fanciers are and always have been doing just that.  If JQP doesn't want to come to those shows or recognize those dogs as exemplars of the breed, that's not really something we can control.  I care about the dogs and the breed, not other peoples' perception of me and my dogs, especially people who appear to know so little about the breed anyway.

That is why I laugh when I read this thread and how the Kennel Club is supposed to be patted on the back for attempting to change a standard that 1) is fine as it is and 2) is something that THEY misinterpreted in the first place.  IMO it would be far more noble to admit their mistake and move on, not change the standard so it appears they are being forced to change the way they breed and show their dogs.  It's just so dumb, I can't wrap my head around it at all.

AgileGSD

 Should Poodles cease to exsist because their build puts them at risk for bloat?

I don't agree with breeding for physical features, even for poodles.  I also, for the most part, don't believe in creating and perpetuating "breeds" as defined by the AKC and the like.  The whole idea of breed creation is to the narrow the gene pool so much to create as little variation between individuals as possible, thus the reason why there is an association between specific health problems and breeds.  It's kind of why I laugh at the idea of "improving the breed" by created more dogs with extreme features and tight gene pools.  If people really cared about improving the health of dogs then they would breed for just that, instead of for an animal with less hair, or giant size, or a pushed in face.  JMO.

pudel

AgileGSD

 Should Poodles cease to exsist because their build puts them at risk for bloat?

I don't agree with breeding for physical features, even for poodles.  I also, for the most part, don't believe in creating and perpetuating "breeds" as defined by the AKC and the like.  The whole idea of breed creation is to the narrow the gene pool so much to create as little variation between individuals as possible, thus the reason why there is an association between specific health problems and breeds.  It's kind of why I laugh at the idea of "improving the breed" by created more dogs with extreme features and tight gene pools.  If people really cared about improving the health of dogs then they would breed for just that, instead of for an animal with less hair, or giant size, or a pushed in face.  JMO.

 While I don't agree with you that breeding purebred dogs is bad, I can agree with you on something. This idea that breeds should be "improved" is really where the problem stems from I think. As a breeder, you may breed to improve your own dogs but should be breeding to maintain or preserve the breed. Modern "mprovements" of breeds tend to be deviations from what is historically correct for the breed. Breeders of modern show GSDs, BCs, Aussies, Dobes, Corgis, Sibes and many, many other breeds feel their dogs are an improvement on the dogs from the past (because they're prettier and/or more docile in most cases).

 The improvements with brachycephalic breeds has lead to dogs which have respistpry problems and reproductive problems. Bulldogs were never intended to be the "improved", modern Bulldog - they were althletic and fierce. And they could reproduce on their own. Pugs and Pekes of the past had short muzzles but had muzzles and didn't have the breathing problems or reproductive problems of the dogs today. My neighbor has a BYB Peke that I really like - he is very playful, energectic and he can breathe - he has a short muzzles, not a flat muzzle. He is IMO much more what a Peke should be than the modern show Pekes. Corgis are now becoming a breed with reproductive problems. Modern show breeders feel that the breed should be bred for extreme dwarf characteristics (shorter legs, longer bodies, heavier bone). This has lead to males having a hard time with natural breedings and bitches having whelping problems. What is so wrong with how corgis of the past looked? They were althletic, active, herding dogs who could breed naturally.

  I suspect that bloat has become an increasingly common problem in "improved" breeds due to the depth of chest. I know many breeders in bloat-prone breeds are now tacking their dog's stomachs and encouraging buyers to do the same. If you look at the modern show GSD or Dobe, it is obvious that they have far deeper chests than dogs of the past (and seem to have far more of a problem with bloat).

While this article is about "ultratyping" in purebred cats, it very much applies to this discussion (check out how much the Persian breed has changed - much like the Brachy dog breeds): http://www.messybeast.com/ultracat.htm

pudel

I also, for the most part, don't believe in creating and perpetuating "breeds" as defined by the AKC and the like.

What does "for the most part" mean?  Are you OK with breeding certain specific breeds?  What about breeds not recognised by the AKC?  What about breeds who don't even have specific health problems, where the only specific improvements that can be bred for are working ability, temperament, and looks?

As to what the KC is doing...right thing, wrong way.  They should be involved with improving the health of breeds, and I don't think that criticising them for doing so, even if it was their fault to begin with, is particularly productive.  Criticising them for HOW they want to improve specific breeds is fair game, IMHO.  

dstull

Liesje,  you and the people you show with ARE doing!! You have your dogs in the poblic eye, you've been to fun matches were the differences are obvious. This is what I wish more people were doing. When it's said that the GSD has been ruined, you and your dog's breeder can stand up a say"our's aren't".

 If you have a "normal" looking GSD and take them out and about at all, people will talk to you about them. I always correct people when I hear them talk about how breeders have ruined the GSD and tell them that is only the Amline GSDs. Another thing I find myself having to educate people about is the size a GSD is supposed to be - Jora is 23" (middle of the standard for a bitch) and people ask me if she is a puppy, a "mini" and question if she is purebred because she is "so small". My Amline boy was 28" and people thought he was about the right size (he was 2" over the standard though, typical of Amlines).

 Spectators always favor the less extreme GSD if they are entered at shows or even just outside of the ring watching with their owners. But that isn't really enough to push most people to want to enter their German dogs at AKC shows. As Liesje said - most Amline people are only interested in conformation and don't do anything else with the dogs. The number of CH GSDs with any other titles at the GSDCA National is so low that it is really kind of sad and the number with anything beyond an entry level title is even worse.

AgileGSD

Another thing I find myself having to educate people about is the size a GSD is supposed to be - Jora is 23" (middle of the standard for a bitch) and people ask me if she is a puppy, a "mini" and question if she is purebred because she is "so small". My Amline boy was 28" and people thought he was about the right size (he was 2" over the standard though, typical of Amlines).

I get this as well, and it's not only due to the Am lines but dogs in pics and on TV often look more formidable in size than their actual measurement.  Kenya is 21" and all the time people say "oh look at those puppies!" when I have her and Nikon.  Again though, these are people that will admit or ask questions that indicate they have no experience or knowledge of the breed.  Many times people have approached me and said "that is a correct GSD" or "I love the size of your bitch".  I've had a few men approach me and tell me that they/their friend "had a bitch just like that in 'Nam".

Again, whether or not to enter my German dogs in the AKC ring is about more than just flooding their rings with German dogs.  I don't agree with a lot of what the AKC stands for regarding the breed.  I don't agree with how they evaluate breeding stock as a whole, not just conformation.  I don't agree with their views on Schutzhund.

Liesje

I get this as well, and it's not only due to the Am lines but dogs in pics and on TV often look more formidable in size than their actual measurement.  Kenya is 21" and all the time people say "oh look at those puppies!" when I have her and Nikon. 

 And there are breeders who advertise "Old Fashioned HUGE GSDs" and some people due to that believe that GSDs "used to be bigger". I have had dog people (in other breeds) agrue with me over that fact. But most people are just average pet owners who don't know much about the breed and a lot of BYB GSDs (at least here) are huge dogs.