NC trooper case - all K9 units suspended!

BCMixs

I'm not sure about other states but here in VA, assaulting a police dog is the same as an officer, and carries the same penalties.

Same here in FL.

Chuffy, when I tell my dogs to "drop it" regardless of what "it" is, I expect it done immediately.  Still and all I'm not going to half hang them, kick them or anything else that seems to be common practice there.  And granted, my dogs aren't "lethal weapons", but then again, if these dogs are used primarily for drug sniffing I'm not sure why they would be considered such.

I don't know.  This whole situation truly makes me want to spend some quality kneeling at the alter of  the procelin goddess.

Chuffy

Liesje

Still, there is no reason to HANG and KICK a dog.  Sometimes if the dog is being very aggressive, they will use a technique where they simply lift the dog's head high enough so the front feet are off the ground.  Not condoning it, just saying it's used.  So there is NEVER a reason to hang or helicopter the dog.  If the dog is THAT aggressive and drivey, then they need to rethink the dogs they are using and/or how they are training.  If you cannot control your OWN dog, then that's YOUR problem. 

 

Just wanted to clarify, in case this bit was directly in reply to me - I agree that the actions of the officer were deplorable!!  (Good word BCMixes!)
I hope that goes w/o saying. 

I was posting mainly to clear up the questions re sniffing/protection being different disciplines and why the dog might be being made to give up the toy (the method used was obviously not acceptable, but wanting the dog to surrender the toy probably WAS, is my thinking).

 

No you are exactly right, I just wanted to expound on what you were saying.  I'm not really sure how the toys are use for narc dogs (I know cadaver dogs get "cadaver balls" when they are young).  For protection and obedience work, toys are used as rewards, for revving up the dog, for building drive, and for teaching the "outs" when the dogs are young, before they are biting on a sleeve and need to out on the sleeve.

It is an issue of poor development of the program, inadequate screening of the applicants for the positions and lack of on going instruction and mentoring.  Malinois can be very hard dogs... They can also trained without these harsh responses which are not training.  Is punishment necessary in this field of course, you need instant obedience.  The problem is that takes time and that takes money and many places who get into this level of problem want to take training short cuts and save money.

You have to use your brain a whole lot more with a high drive mal than you do any number of other working dogs.  They are like working BCs, they live to work.  It is when there are short cuts taken that things crash and burn.  Now lets take this one step further.  If you use physical strategies to make a dog release and the dog doesn't, what the heck are you going to do when the dog actually takes a bite.  You are in worse trouble than you ever thought.  Malinois require extremely calm and quiet handling to prevent their reactivity from taking over.  It is a double edged sword since it is that very reactivity that makes them so darn good at their jobs.

As to the toy in narcotics training, the folks in my area use the toy based motivation method.  Most toys selected are stored for a period with the specific substance the dogs are being trained to find.  The toy is then hidden with a quantity of those drugs and the dog is guided through the search with specific commands.  Then, as the dog's competency increases, they hang back and provide fewer commands or cues.  The local group here wants to get Nora certificed, we will see.  Sounds like fun.

 As to giving up the toy, that is a necessary release we all need to have.  Some sort of drop it or out is critical for any dog.  In this case, if these clueless idiots had used the two toy game properly ( to build the drive and the release) and taught the dogs that loss of the toy was temporary (delay of reinforcement), the incident would not have happened. 

I fully get that these dogs need to obey instantly.  And certainly it's far more critical than one of mine not dropping whatever I ask them to drop before the words are all the way out of my mouth.  I guess it sounded to me like the dog was being rewarded with the toy for a job well done, being allowed to be a dog for a few minutes, and the handler got bent out of shape at less than instant obedience when he wanted it.  If it's true, as someone said above, that mals don't have an off switch then I'm guessing this dog would play every bit as hard as he works.

Regardless of the circumstances I don't agree with this kind of behavior and I don't think it's even remotely needed to properly train a working dog.  You gave me some interesting insight into mals and I appreciate knowing more about the breed.  And of course, I'm not training MY working dogs to actually work.....therapy work and tracking are far different than having lives on the line.

The sad thing is, since there are no written guidelines, and since this cop can probably show that his behavior was more or less the norm, he'll probably be reinstated.  Lets just hope that he's not allowed to work with the dogs any longer, and that all the officers who DO will be given additional training on just how to work with their partners.

mrv

 As to giving up the toy, that is a necessary release we all need to have.  Some sort of drop it or out is critical for any dog.  In this case, if these clueless idiots had used the two toy game properly ( to build the drive and the release) and taught the dogs that loss of the toy was temporary (delay of reinforcement), the incident would not have happened. 

Exactly.  I just don't buy it that the dogs in general are TOO into their work to drop the toy. If that really is the case, then the dog is not suitable for this work.  Like you said, what happens when the dog bites a person?  How will they call him off?  There are plenty of great working and competitive dogs that have great outs on command, so they can't tell me that it's just not possible to train police dogs to out without helicoptering them.  Yes, police dogs and working dogs ARE very different from other GSDs and Mals, but there are enough of them out there who are trained properly and handled properly to prove that these tactics are not necessary.

Here's some Mals in ringsport, they look pretty revved up to me but notice how they actually OUT (looks like some are called back while others drop to a down).  So if they can all do it, then the police dogs should do it too.  It's not the dog's fault if no one properly trains and reinforces the out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQe-LtBGS4 

KNVP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcaAPhThnBM

Sheesh Mals are insane!  They hit so hard.  I've seen them get really hurt b/c they literally throw everything in to it.  I want a Mal someday but I'm not getting one for my first SchH dog, that's for sure!
 

One of Nora's kin was evaluated by an agency in Florida.  The decoy did not take him seriously as he weight only 60 pounds (verses the 80-90 GSDs this decoy typically worked with).  The decoy (Big guy over 6';) stood with a chain link fence behind him.  The dog took him down....it is all about velocity.

HOLY COW!!

Thanks for the links, Liesje.

I would never be capable of training or handling a mal. 

Proof positive if you put in the time and the effort and follow a prescribed and validated training procedures you can get a perfect out.

 I would say this clip truly qualifies as proof positive it is not the dog who is incapable.  For those unfamiliar with the exercise, there is NO handler present.  The dog is just working off training.  It must defend and release based on the distance from the object and the intent of the behavior.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heQ8Q9zCT1k

Liesje

I just don't buy it that the dogs in general are TOO into their work to drop the toy.

Chuffy

A police dog can be used for both disciplines - sniffing and protection.  I thought it was standard practise, but I could be wrong - or perhaps it is different here.  I thought thats why GSDs were so often used as police dogs - because they are such great "all rounders" when it comes to working.  Often (here anyway) sniffer dogs are labs or springers. 

Liesje

GSDs are used most often because they are biddable, obedience, and level headed in comparison with the insanely drivey Malinois.  The dog in question here is a Malinois, not a GSD.  Technically, the Malinois is the "better" dog for protection and taking down a suspect.  They are typically faster, more aggressive, very high strung, insane drives....but a lot of times people end up with dogs they absolutely cannot control.  They have no "off" switch and often have to be crated or kenneled any time they are not "working".  Malinois were becoming the favorite for police and military, but I understand many are going back to GSDs because they have a more reliable on/off switch and are easier to control because the are more biddable to the handler.  Also, it is rare that the dog actually does have to attack.  In most cases, the visual deterrence is enough, and to a lot of people, a thick boned black sable DDR German Shepherd simply looks more menacing than the smaller, lighter (weight and color) Malinois.  Some of these Malinois being bred and trained for high levels of sport and work are so intense and high strung I really feel for them.  They CAN be a liability.  I'm not trying to bash the breed or generalize, they are my favorite breed, but this is the reality of a lot of these types of dogs (some GSDs too).

glenmar

Chuffy, when I tell my dogs to "drop it" regardless of what "it" is, I expect it done immediately.  Still and all I'm not going to half hang them, kick them or anything else that seems to be common practice there.  And granted, my dogs aren't "lethal weapons", but then again, if these dogs are used primarily for drug sniffing I'm not sure why they would be considered such.

I appreciate what you are saying and agree with you that the way the dog was treated was not acceptable just as I agreed with Liesje above...  I think that if they are police dogs then even if they are being used primarily for drug sniffing, I THINK there will still be an element of protection involved and therefore lightning fast obedience to the handler is an all-round must, wouldn't you say?

Mind you, the way this human behaved made it quite clear, IMO, that he didn't DESERVE instant obedience and the dog was clearly smart enough to see that.