Serial Killers

I must agree with you PWCA.  Sociopathic behavior of abusing animals is different than dog fighting.  This not saying that one is better than the other, merely different.  The cultural aspect of blood sport has been documented for long periods of time and still occurs in some countries.
 
Serial killers and blood sport proponents are not the same group from a psychological profile stand point.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8


Sorry, but I don't see anyway that dogfighting can be considered a "sport". Anyone that can take a dog and throw in into  an enclosure and watch while  it gets ripped to shreds, is as cruel and as sadistic as one can get.

Agreed, thus why I put it in quotes. []

well... i can see how dogfights could eventually lead up to sociopathic behaviour... and here is how i rationalise that:
kids have been documented attending these fights with parents...
so in seeing daddy cheering for the winning dog that is ripping another dog to shreds... so the kid thinks its acceptable.
its part of his life... Kids are naturally drawn to strong and powerful things because thats how they want to be, or they think it will protect them.... so this kid that sees dogfights with dad every other weekend wants to be the tough dog winning the fight and tearing his enemies to shreds... the enemy may be the "mean" teacher, or the bully on the bus, or any kind of resistance in his life... even something as simple as a kitten scratching him while its playing.

now on a lesser scale, take kids that look up to athletes or movie star heroes.... while out playing you'll hear a kid pretending to be this tough guy or that ball player....
its already been said that children playing make-believe games are acting out real life situations.. which is why abused kids that go to therapists are encouraged to play with dolls and draw pictures because those two simple things tell a WORLD of information about whats going on in that kids head and in his household.

not saying that any kind who views violence will definitely turn into a murderous freak... but i can see how watching dog fights with crowds of cheering men could certainly be the building blocks.
i pay close attention to kids at play, mostly because i can remember all the fun i had playing pretend... but what do you do when you see something disturbing? i worked at a daycare and i'm glad to say that most of the kids were fairly normal... though many of them should have been in bed sleeping and NOT watching CSI or other cop shows... i dont agree with kids pretending to shoot and kill each other.... "OK! now you be the bad guy that killed the lady and i'll be the cop!" bang bang! [sm=rolleyes.gif]
yeah my brother and i used to play those games too, well... we played War... and no life cant always be sunshine and unicorns.... but some of it bothers me a little.

There is a very real difference between sociopaths and others who demonstrate criminal behavior.  Sociopaths have not empathy and have no bonds to any living creature.  Now it does not mean that sociopaths can not be drawn into or participate in blood sport.  It means they dont care about the individuals human or canine.  It is all about "me".

I would propose there is a "culture" in dog fighting that does have interconnection between the individuals involved.  It is not healthy in my personal opinion, but the interpersonal relationships are there.  There is a bond of sorts.  Sociopaths (the smart ones) are very good at mimicing that bond but it really does not exist.
 
True sociopathic behavior is different;  it does not typically respond to treatment.  You can develop rule following and there are some folks would could be labeled sociopathic who manage to stay this side of legal.
 
The discussion points under debate deal with the premise that individuals who engage in dog fighting are serial killers in the making.  The research into sociopathic behavior would not support that premise.

I think the laws should be stricter but most all of us on here most likley do. This is going to sound crazy because not many people can say they went to school with a serial killer, I did and lived in a small town at the time. He started out killing chickens snapping their necks growing up and one of his victims was a friend of my sisters.
I also wanted to ad that I go to schools and talk about dog fighting mostly alternative high school classes, I can't get to graphic but do say plenty about it. The one thing that really kills me is how the bate dogs are muzzled and ripped apart so they can train the other dogs. People just don't have a clue, I am glade you started this post!

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: talenak

I have not seen a single person online or in person who took what Vick did as no big deal thank GOODNESS.
I also think if someone is going to blow it off as too graphic to watch, they should really make everyone watch it.  With society so desensitized to any reality that doesn't directly affect or effect them anymore, it's important.

Here is a story about 200 Vick fans outside the Georgia Dome last week saying that Vick is more important than dogs , and should be allowed to play. 

[linkhttp://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/29/0730vick.html]http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/29/0730vick.html[/link]

If those people who think he's more important than dogs end up at that dome next hurricane, we should leave them there, and go save the dogs.

ORIGINAL: Pwca

I'm not saying at ALL that it's not cruel. What I'm saying is that the 'bloodsports' don't fit into the psychological model of animal abuse in the same way as an individual torturing an animal. (For one thing, there's a different cultural basis. I'm not going to even START a relativistic cultural argument, I think it's cruel period, but the psychological twisting that produces a person who tortures an animal outside of that 'sport' context is more in line with the sociopathic stuff.)

Bobsk8, you're very frustrating to debate with, because you don't argue with facts, just emotions, and you're REALLY bad about the ad hominem attacks. Just saying.

I listened to a 1 hour program featuring a lifelong law enforcement person who designs training materials for othe law enforcement people and has done so for much of his career. He also loves dogs, and hence the program.   He describes a clear connection between the type of sick individual that attends and or organizes dog fights, and people that wind up as serial killers. He also compares the dog fighting type person  to people that get their  kicks from  abusing  animals, and says that they are pretty much the same type of personality. You state that it is not the same thing.  I guess he and I are wrong, and you are right........[&:] Oh well....

If those people who think he's more important than dogs end up at that dome next hurricane, we should leave them there, and go save the dogs.

 
Tell me who are "those people" that you think whose lives are not as important that that of a dog.
 
And may I remind everyone that Vick has only been indited to be involved in dog fighting.  He hasn't been found guilty of anything yet unless you don't believe in our legal system where someone is innocent until proven guilty.
 
 

Did everyone read the whole article? Some of the protestors made a valid point.
 
[color=#000000][color=#cc0000]Ray Lewis was charged with murdering TWO people and he wasn't suspended---granted he was charged as they headed into the off season. (I believe he missed the Pro Bowl because of it.) He pled guilty to obstruction of justice and was never suspended by the NFL.[/color][/color]
 
Rae Carruth of the Carolina Panthers arranged the shooting of his pregnant girlfriend. He was out on bail and expected to turn himself in if she or the baby (who was delivered prematurely) died. She died and he fled which is when the Panthers dropped him. So if I understand this, he was still on the roster (during the season) after being charged with the shooting and with a otential murder charge hanging over his head.
 
People in the article say that it is a double standard to suspend Vick for a crime he hasn't been convicted of and yet allow guys charged with murdering people to stay on an NFL payroll. DOES anyone here think that Vick should have tougher penalties from the NFL than someone who was charged with shooting his girlfriend and unborn child? If so, please explain the logic behind your reasoning... 
 
I think some (not all, the "its not a big deal crowd" are whackos[]) of the protestors are trying to say that abuse and cruelty to dogs is wrong---but abuse and cruelty to people is wrong too and they find it hard to swallow that hundreds of people will protest about Vick abusing dogs when they don't remember hundreds of people protesting about these other crimes. I am not saying anything about Vick's guilt or innocence, but I do believe they have a valid point.

Polar, you made a VERY good point there.
the crimes you mentioned i only heard in passing.... but vick is all over the freakin place .... [:'(]
but .... it seems like there are three crowds.
one for the animal rights
one for the "its just a dog, who cares"
and one for the "how is this more important than the other violent crimes that involved people"

and i have to agree now that you've pointed that out for me. yes dog fighting is horrible, but so is any crime where people or animals are harmed on purpose. there shouldnt be a double standard.....
crime is crime.... lets deal with it the proper way.. i think if the athlete has a mark on his record or a brush with the law he should be cut from the team IF he has been proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.
.. and i personally believe vick is guilty as sin, whether he funded the fights, attended, or was up to his elbows in it... he knew it was illegal and he allowed that garbage to continue on his own property, which is aiding and abetting criminals.
but thats probably something for a different topic.
i dont think he is a serial killer, but i do think he's a sorry excuse for a human being.

ORIGINAL: polarexpress

Did everyone read the whole article? Some of the protestors made a valid point.
 
[color="#000000"][color="#cc0000"]Ray Lewis was charged with murdering TWO people and he wasn't suspended---granted he was charged as they headed into the off season. (I believe he missed the Pro Bowl because of it.) He pled guilty to obstruction of justice and was never suspended by the NFL.[/color][/color]
 
Rae Carruth of the Carolina Panthers arranged the shooting of his pregnant girlfriend. He was out on bail and expected to turn himself in if she or the baby (who was delivered prematurely) died. She died and he fled which is when the Panthers dropped him. So if I understand this, he was still on the roster (during the season) after being charged with the shooting and with a otential murder charge hanging over his head.
 
People in the article say that it is a double standard to suspend Vick for a crime he hasn't been convicted of and yet allow guys charged with murdering people to stay on an NFL payroll. DOES anyone here think that Vick should have tougher penalties from the NFL than someone who was charged with shooting his girlfriend and unborn child? If so, please explain the logic behind your reasoning... 

I think some (not all, the "its not a big deal crowd" are whackos[]) of the protestors are trying to say that abuse and cruelty to dogs is wrong---but abuse and cruelty to people is wrong too and they find it hard to swallow that hundreds of people will protest about Vick abusing dogs when they don't remember hundreds of people protesting about these other crimes. I am not saying anything about Vick's guilt or innocence, but I do believe they have a valid point.

So because past crimes were not taken seriously, current and future crimes should not be taken seriously?  Psssha.  Maybe it's time the NFL start throwing the book at all those pieces of crap who think they are above the law because they get paid a bizillion dollars a year to play a flippin game.

The Vick case looks as good a place as any to start.

ORIGINAL: timsdat

If those people who think he's more important than dogs end up at that dome next hurricane, we should leave them there, and go save the dogs.

Tell me who are "those people" that you think whose lives are not as important that that of a dog.

And may I remind everyone that Vick has only been indited to be involved in dog fighting.  He hasn't been found guilty of anything yet unless you don't believe in our legal system where someone is innocent until proven guilty.

May I remind you that this is an internet message board, not a court of law.  People are free to hold whatever opinions that they wish about an individuals guilt or innocence, unless of couse you don't believe in free thought.

And in answer to your question, each of my dogs is worth seven of the filth that fights dogs, hangs animals for fun, set cats on fire, skin animals alive, pour acid on puppies, etc, etc, etc.......And if that line of thinking makes me a bad person, fine--I guess that's just the way it is.....

The connection is correlated, not causal.  That is the only point that is being made.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: polarexpress

Did everyone read the whole article? Some of the protestors made a valid point.
 
[color="#000000"][color="#cc0000"]Ray Lewis was charged with murdering TWO people and he wasn't suspended---granted he was charged as they headed into the off season. (I believe he missed the Pro Bowl because of it.) He pled guilty to obstruction of justice and was never suspended by the NFL.[/color][/color]
 
Rae Carruth of the Carolina Panthers arranged the shooting of his pregnant girlfriend. He was out on bail and expected to turn himself in if she or the baby (who was delivered prematurely) died. She died and he fled which is when the Panthers dropped him. So if I understand this, he was still on the roster (during the season) after being charged with the shooting and with a otential murder charge hanging over his head.
 
People in the article say that it is a double standard to suspend Vick for a crime he hasn't been convicted of and yet allow guys charged with murdering people to stay on an NFL payroll. DOES anyone here think that Vick should have tougher penalties from the NFL than someone who was charged with shooting his girlfriend and unborn child? If so, please explain the logic behind your reasoning... 

I think some (not all, the "its not a big deal crowd" are whackos[]) of the protestors are trying to say that abuse and cruelty to dogs is wrong---but abuse and cruelty to people is wrong too and they find it hard to swallow that hundreds of people will protest about Vick abusing dogs when they don't remember hundreds of people protesting about these other crimes. I am not saying anything about Vick's guilt or innocence, but I do believe they have a valid point.

So because past crimes were not taken seriously, current and future crimes should not be taken seriously?  Psssha.  Maybe it's time the NFL start throwing the book at all those pieces of crap who think they are above the law because they get paid a bizillion dollars a year to play a flippin game.

The Vick case looks as good a place as any to start.

People just forget the facts in this situtation.

1.  This is a Federal Indictment.  The conviction rate for these indictments is 98%....
2.  The Indictment is 18 pages long, and he is mentioned many times as being active in this fighting ring.
3.  One of his running buddies in the dog ring has already ratted him out and pleaded guilty.

Anyone that is playing for a professional team, is supposed to behave in a way that doesn't bring discredit to the sport or the team.  All these criminals that were mentioned in the article did just the opposite and that is why the league is now enforcing their own rules of getting rid of these creeps, when it it is obvious that they have broken the law. For the few hoodlum looking types that support Vick in Atlanta, there are tens of thousands  of fans in this town that think he is a piece of slime, and wouldn't go near the Dome, if he was playing.

Maybe Vick can help OJ look for the real killer, this summer  []......

ORIGINAL: sillysally

So because past crimes were not taken seriously, current and future crimes should not be taken seriously?  Psssha.  Maybe it's time the NFL start throwing the book at all those pieces of crap who think they are above the law because they get paid a bizillion dollars a year to play a flippin game.

it isnt just happening in football.
remember Imus? i read recently that his little fiasco has had a backlash on the rap music industry, which is just fine with me. i was in a shopping centre parking lot and couldnt believe the filth spewing at top volume from some guy's car!! i DONT have virgin ears, but that was just disgusting and i cant wait for that garbage to end..... we have these rules and laws that get broken and people slide under the wire... but sometimes it takes one big example to make authorities stop allowing it to skate by.
the shame in this case is it was a big crime, with lots of innocents being injured and killed, and not to mention the trafficking and impacts it has on society outside of the ring.