Dog Community

Muzzling Ella for walks? I'm undecided and would like some opinions.

Posted : 7/28/2007 8:13:21 AM

Ella is dog aggressive. If she sees another dog, she'll lunge, pull, bark, whine, and checks out of reality.

She's already attacked one dog (long story, I've posted about it before).

I have a muzzle for her, though I have not used it during any walks yet. I've introduced her to it, very well and she has associated it with good things because I treated her like crazy, acted all happy whenever she went near it, put treats in it when I put it on her. This all took like a week before I ever put it on her.
We even tried it on her at training a while ago and though she tried to paw at it to get it off if we were standing still, she didn't paw at it if we were working her.

I had decided NOT to muzzle her per some advice I had gotten from a pit bull person, so I put it away and we haven't used it.

Though we ARE working on getting her to behave around other dogs, and HAVE been since December, her reaction to other dogs is still pretty much the same: checks out of reality and would attack if given the opportunity.

Now, I HATE, HATE, HATE to think of muzzling her. I HATE IT. Because I can control her on walks as long as there are NO off leash dogs that approach us. So...if I muzzle her it would be for THIS reason only. Since she has attacked one dog, and I've seen what my dog is capable of doing in that regard, I fear for any off leash dog that approaches us. And, unfortunately, even though people have been told, they STILL allow their dogs off leash. I don't EVER want to lose my dog because of a dog attack. I don't want my dog to hurt an off leash dog just because its owners are irresponsible and allow it off leash.
This is why I would muzzle Ella.

On the other hand, though, I'm afraid that muzzling her might make her dog aggression worse. I'm afraid that whatever causes her dog aggression, if it's fear or insecurity or a lack of confidence, that a muzzle might worsen that low level of confidence making her feel helpless to defend herself. BUT, all the off leash dogs we've ever encountered are not aggressive, just not...the brightest dogs because some will approach and even if they don't approach us, I don't know that I want to risk that they won't. Because if they are stupid enough to, they'll get seriously hurt.
What if muzzling her causes new bad behaviors that weren't there before because she is insecure? I don't know what causes her dog aggression, I could blame genetics saying that she's a pit bull and all pit bulls have the tendancy to become dog aggressive at some point, but what if it's not? What if what the jerkface trainer did to her to by popping her prong collar so many times, and aggressively, anytime she was around another dog; what if that caused her dog aggression? Would I be worsening it by muzzling her?

But then another part of me, when I think that, thinks: Does it matter WHAT caused it? The fact is is that she IS dog aggressive and WOULD do damage to an off leash dog that approached us.
Though we ARE working on getting her to focus on us, and it's been a long journey because she is so distracted by other dogs, we're still in the process. And while we're still in the process, my dog still needs walks.

And honestly, I'm afraid to walk her because of off leash dogs. When you've had to break up a dog fight that your dog is in because she's dog aggressive, and you see what your dog is capable of doing, it can damage your confidence in handling your dog. Trust me. I NEVER want to have to break up another dog fight again.
Ella isn't just a "growl, snap, and make wild noises" type dog when she attacks or when I say she's dog aggressive. She will go in without making a noise and just instantly attack. And it's an attack to seriously DAMAGE the dog.

So...I want some advice, please. Some advice from anyone who might be dealing with this same thing, or from someone who has worked with dog aggressive dogs before.

Thanks.[

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glenmar

Posted : 7/28/2007 8:31:32 AM

This is a hard situation.

I use a basket muzzle for Sheba when we are going to be any place that *might* be stressful for her. She isn't DA, or really FA, but she IS fearful and she can be reactive. Even tho she knows at some level that Mom can handle the situations it takes putting that muzzle on her for her to relax and not worry about stuff since I've taken all choices away from her.

Lately we've been taking advantage of the new walking path in town. We park at the big sports complex and walk to the elementary school that I've mentioned with the big fenced playground. Then they play off lead for a good while before we walk back. There is one spot on that path that I always call Sheba to me "hey Sheb, lets put this on so you don't HAVE to try so hard to behave" and once we are well past that point, it comes off. This point is a backyard with unrestrained dogs AND kids. The Village is having to fight these folks because they won't allow a fence...hello? The Village offered to fence their entire yard for FREE and they'd rather have their kids and dogs endangered by bikes and other dogs? Whatever.

And because Sheba is a gsd, yes, I thought long and hard about using a muzzle with her and reinforcing the "dangerous" dog image, but bottom line, she's actually happier with it.

Aery

Posted : 7/28/2007 8:37:14 AM

I had a DA Doberman a few years back. I refused to put a muzzle on him, it just made me uneasy, and where I'm from, if your dog is aggressive, the town believes it has no place here. I didn't want them seeing my muzzle on my dog and then threatening it's life.

I used a good head halti and a martingale collar for easier control. We never had a problem.
I don't mind muzzles, I know they are good tools, but in my area I just didn't feel comfortable using it. And I can understand you not wanting to use it, but it may be for the best if you have exhausted all other avenues.

chewbecca

Posted : 7/28/2007 8:40:01 AM

Well, I'm not so much worried about the muzzle making Ella look "dangerous" because if anyone gasps at the sight of her in the muzzle, I have a few "well, if people would keep their dogs on leash..." words for them.

I'm more worried about it damaging HER. But not having the extra security of knowing I've at least done the MAXIMUM of what I can to make sure she won't hurt other dogs, I'm being damaged, you know?
But what's worse is, if she attacked another dog, it'd be all the more damaging to her, another dog would be damaged, and I'd risk possibly legal action if the owner wanted to throw a fit about it.

Oh, the muzzle I have for her IS a basket muzzle that I can treat her through and that I could give her a drink through. Funny thing, I don't have to muzzle her at the vet's. We simply wait outside until they have cleared the area of other dogs, they call us in and we go in. In ALL the times I've taken her to the vet for things since i've had her, she's NEVER even growled or barked or bared teeth at another human being. EVER. In fact, she got her vaccinations last Saturday and she simply sat still while they injected her. She didn't squirm or anything. It's like she didn't even feel it.
So she has not an ounce of human aggression in her. It's ONLY for other dogs.

Bobsk8

Posted : 7/28/2007 10:00:40 AM

I think having a dog that you know is aggressive and has already attacked another dog, and not using a muzzle is asking for trouble, and some people would call it irresponsible. If your dog attacks another dog or starts a fight where someone gets bitten, the end result is that you may get sued, and you dog will probably be put down.

Jewlieee

Posted : 7/28/2007 10:03:48 AM

Would walking her with a muzzle prevent her from panting enough to cool off?

chewbecca

Posted : 7/28/2007 10:10:48 AM

ORIGINAL: Jewlieee

Would walking her with a muzzle prevent her from panting enough to cool off?

No. She could pant enough.

chewbecca

Posted : 7/28/2007 10:12:56 AM

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

I think having a dog that you know is aggressive and has already attacked another dog, and not using a muzzle is asking for trouble, and some people would call it irresponsible. If your dog attacks another dog or starts a fight where someone gets bitten, the end result is that you may get sued, and you dog will probably be put down.

My dog is dog aggressive, not JUST aggressive. There is a distinct difference between human aggressive and dog aggressive.

She won't bite ANY human. The only dog she'll get is an off leash one.

I'm NOT irresponsible and walk my dog OFF leash.

The fight she got into was unfortunately MY fault, but it's been prevented from EVER happening again.

Yes, isn't it unfortunate that I should have to muzzle my dog because OTHER owners are irresponsible and allow their dogs off leash?

Aery

Posted : 7/28/2007 10:22:19 AM

Chewbecca, I understand you completely. It is not your responsibility to control off-leash dogs. You know your dog's background, and you know how to control her, but it is asking for trouble, muzzle or not, to have an off-leash dog around. It doesn't make you irresponsible at all.

Say you are walking your baby, with a muzzle on, and another DA off-leash dog comes running up to attack. Your dog may die, because it has no way to defend itself, and you may get bitten in the process if you try to pull the off-leash dog off of your own.
It's really a double-edges sword, and it likes to twist itself in the situation. That's why I used the head-halti and the martingale, I had total control over my dog, and his head especially. He was in no way HA either, and if I saw an off leash dog coming for us, I held his face in my hands and tried my best to shoo the other dog away, so as to avoid injuries on either dog, though I was more concerned about my own.

chewbecca

Posted : 7/28/2007 10:38:22 AM

I double collar Ella on walks.
I don't know how well a head halti would work for her if she was determined to get a dog.
I think it would be very hard to hold her head and leash at the same time AND shoo a dog away.

cakana

Posted : 7/28/2007 10:53:50 AM

I know what you're feeling and have thought the same thing about Sassy. Just like Ella, she's totally fine as long as no out of control dogs approach us, but if they do, I really worry about her reaction. It makes walks less than fun for me and I probably walk her less than I would if I didn't have to worry. I have a couple of idiot neighbors who consistently let their dogs run loose. They're friendly dogs but Sassy probably wouldn't see it that way. I took her to the vet yesterday and as we were leaving a woman walked in with a yapping, out of control dog and I could just see the look in Sassy's eyes [8|]. The one concern I've had with using a muzzle is that I know that Sassy would likely still react, which could cause a fight to happen, but she'd be at a disadvantage without being able to defend herself. Sorry I'm not helping much, but I just wanted to say that I know what you're going thru.

Bobsk8

Posted : 7/28/2007 11:01:56 AM

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

I think having a dog that you know is aggressive and has already attacked another dog, and not using a muzzle is asking for trouble, and some people would call it irresponsible. If your dog attacks another dog or starts a fight where someone gets bitten, the end result is that you may get sued, and you dog will probably be put down.

My dog is dog aggressive, not JUST aggressive. There is a distinct difference between human aggressive and dog aggressive.

She won't bite ANY human. The only dog she'll get is an off leash one.

I'm NOT irresponsible and walk my dog OFF leash.

The fight she got into was unfortunately MY fault, but it's been prevented from EVER happening again.

Yes, isn't it unfortunate that I should have to muzzle my dog because OTHER owners are irresponsible and allow their dogs off leash?

There is a very fine line between a dog being dog aggressive and it escalating into a situation where a human gets bitten, and it happens quite frequently. The DA dog attacks another dog, someone tries to protect their dog that is being attacked by breaking up the fight , and gets bitten in the process. If it is shown that your dog has a history of being DA, then you will probably be blamed for the entire incident.

The fact that you asked your question in the first place, tells me that you are uncomfortable with having your dog without wearing a muzzle and the possible consequences of your decision.

Dog_ma

Posted : 7/28/2007 11:08:30 AM

If it were me, I'd skip the muzzle and carry citronella or pepper spray. If an unleashed dog gets too close, they get to meet Mr. Spray Can. Sasha is reactive, so our issue is slightly different, but she's been attacked in her life and I take my responsibility to keep other dogs away seriously.

I'm a softie and an animal lover, and I have no desire to scare or harm any other dogs, but I have to put my dog's safety first - and not letting Ella take a chomp out of stupid off leash dog is a part of safety.

I've broken up a serious fight (between my own two dogs) and I know what you mean about how traumatizing it is. When you've seen your own dog go for blood, it shakes you up.

Ivan was an aggressive leash lunger (he's also the one who attacked Sasha). What actually helped him get control of himself was prong collar corrections. We worked with an awesome trainer, so I have no idea what about Ivan made that solution perfect for him, but it was.

I also carried spray when I had Ivan and Sasha, out of concern for dog fights.

chewbecca

Posted : 7/28/2007 11:11:20 AM

I'm concerned that my dog would hurt another dog. Not a human. Could it happen? I suppose, on accident. If that's what you're saying.
But I felt like it was said or implied that I was an irresponsible owner because I DID NOT muzzle my dog on a walk. Most owners whose dogs are off leash, if they are around, they call their dog back to them before the dog reaches us because, like I've said, I have not encountered any dog aggressive or human aggressive off leash dogs. But my concern are those dogs that are roaming blocks away from home that run up to us and no owner is in sight.

Couldn't I then also be considered a bad owner to my dog if I allow her to get attacked by an off leash dog aggressive dog if we were ever to encounter one and my dog couldn't defend herself? Wouldn't that then cause trust issues with me and my dog?

It IS a double edged sword and a hard decision to make. But please don't imply that I'm an irresponsible owner just because you CANNOT relate to my situation because you have been ever SO blessed with a non-DA dog. I chose my dog knowing she could one day become dog aggressive. And I'm dealing with it.

Dog_ma

Posted : 7/28/2007 11:14:08 AM

ORIGINAL: chewbecca
Couldn't I then also be considered a bad owner to my dog if I allow her to get attacked by an off leash dog aggressive dog if we were ever to encounter one and my dog couldn't defend herself? Wouldn't that then cause trust issues with me and my dog?

Yes, and trust is hard to rebuild. I work at it every day with Sasha. It has been three years since she was attacked.