Cut off tails and croped ears

I have two hunting dogs: a lab with dew claws and a GSP without and the lab is constantly fussing at them after going for a run in the park etc.
I believe (IMO) that the GSP tails are docked because they are so long and thin that, while hunting, they can be badly hurt.  A damaged tail is very painful for any dog.
While I won't comment on ear docking, as I have no experience, I do love the look of my GSP and feel that he is healthier in the long run with a docked tail.
 

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=238711&mpage=1&key=dewclaws𺑷]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=238711&mpage=1&key=dewclaws𺑷[/link]
 
Pirate had two dewclaws on both back legs...there is a picture in that thread of them before he had them removed.

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

3. To maintain breed standards
Should the docking of tails be eliminated, hundreds of otherwise good breeding animals wouuld be removed from gene pools and this could be a huge downfall for the breed.

[sm=huh.gif]   This doesn't make sense to me.  Tail docking is not a method of birth control. []

Yeah, that one really seems like a stretch. I THINK the idea is that if tails couldn't be docked, then otherwise good dogs would not be bred because of poor tail sets. I guess. I have heard this argument made for docking Rottie tails which apparently are quite variable. I've only seen a few Rotties with tails and I will say that some were carried very high and curled, some low and curled, some straight, some long. So, rather than accept variation in the breed, or set a standard and then end up removing otherwise nice dogs that didn't have the "correct" tail, they just remove the tail instead. Seems weird to me.

I can see where some dogs with very thin tails with very little hair for protection might be quite prone to injuring the tail. But I don't buy the "working" explanations generally offered. Border collie people place great importance on the carriage of the tail, but aussie people claim that tails will get injured. Cattle dog people want tails, unless you call the dog a heeler, in which case tails are bad. Pembrokes - tail bad; Cardigans - tail good. Belgians, GSD's, Briards - tail good; Bouvs - tail bad. Dobies, Rotts - tail bad; GSD, malinois - tail good. Pointer - tail good. Unless you're German. There's just no utilitarian logic there at all. Whether one thinks that docking is acceptable or not (and I've witnessed docking on very very young puppies, and I certainly couldn't see any sign of distress) I just don't think the various utilitarian explanations have much credibility.

Original: Ridgebackgermanshep
and to a previous post (i don't remember who) i doubt a dobe's ears would stand up on their own. Most are pretty big! I don't feel like uploading to photo bucket and all that, so here's a link to dobe with natural ears [linkhttp://www.answers.com/topic/doberman-pinscher]http://www.answers.com/topic/doberman-pinscher[/link]

 
Thanks for the link. I wasnt sure though, But I was just curious as my mothers Miniature Pinscher had floppy ears, were never cropped and today they both stand erct but dont seem too terribly huge.
 
2Shelties- Thanks for the pic. post! Since im an artist when i was younger i use to draw werewolves quite a bit ( well i still do lmao) but i drew dewclaws on their hind legs because it looked neat and some one actually told me no canine had hind dew claws. I was in misbeleif! glad to hear they were wrong! plus its a friggin werewolf >< it can have dewies if it wants on its hind legs!!
 
Sl2crmeg (sp?) - two dewies on both hind feet...wow...that look creepy actually. lol no offense at all. It just looks like an aliens paw none the less, thanks for the pics you all! I couldnt find any one google...figures, nothing rellevant on friggin google any ways....
 
 
Onto dockinga nd cropping, I personally always though docking and cropping on certain breeds, was strictly because of breed standard. Maybe Im partially right. Maybe I'm not right at all. lol im no expert thats for ure!

Buster- originally, oen of the differences between Cardis and Pems when they were registered together, was that if the dog was a natural bob, it was a Pem- long tail, it was a Cardi. They have distinctly different tailsets and conformation, so they'renot really that comparable.

ORIGINAL: Pwca

Buster- originally, oen of the differences between Cardis and Pems when they were registered together, was that if the dog was a natural bob, it was a Pem- long tail, it was a Cardi. They have distinctly different tailsets and conformation, so they'renot really that comparable.

Interesting. I didn't know that was how the two breeds were originally distinguished. Thanks for adding to my store of doggy trivia with which to amaze my dog-loving friends and to bore my non-dog-loving friends ;-}. But my main point was that I think that tail docking, and probably ear cropping has a lot more to do with historical quirks like this than with the various functional explanations/excuses that are frequently cited. I'm fairly neutral about docking tails, but I don't think one can argue that it has all that much to do with work when there are so many breeds that were developed for similar work with some being docked and others not. The two types of corgis are an excellent example of this.

I think it's funny to watch people come up with reasons to dock/crop. There are as many explanations as there are dog breeds. I think it's fairly obvious that people who own breeds that need docking support docking and the people who own breeds that need cropping support cropping.

Personally, I'm a fan of natural breeds. I like dogs that don't need cosmetic surgery to look right. That's a personal choice. As far as cropping/docking and whether or not it's moral, I don't look down on people who do it, but I don't know that I could ever do it (or ask a breeder/vet to do it for me). I didn't have my son circumcized for the same reason. I guess the idea disturbs me.

If ya'll MUST know....the dews are an attempt by the dogs to evolve and grow opposable thumbs.  They get removed to prevent that from happening.  Gee, my gsds (who will someday turn on me and eat me) can already open the fridge and if they start using MY power tools there is gonna be some serious discussion going on.
 
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I think that all 3 of those are kind of a stretch - especially #2 - come on..poo in the fur? There are lots of long haired, long tailed dogs out there without hygeine problems. Either way, it's the stuff the breed people give for tail docking reasons.
 
Whatever the reason, I still like it. It's the first thing I look at to tell a BC from an Aussie

ORIGINAL: brookcove

C'mon guys, just say it's that way because it's always been that way and you like it! [] That goes for most docking/cropping questions now.

 
Actually I can go eiher way for cropped ears.  I have Great Danes with and without the cropping.  The biggest influence on JQP to do the procedure is the advertising and marketing of products showing the public that this how the dog is suppose to look like.  The competitive dog shows tell JQP this is how the dog is suppose to look like.  Even the avatar's here shows you what the dog is suppose to look like.  Once the image of the dog is planted in the mind, the procedure becomes part of the owner responsibility to have it done.

I actually like the look of cropping and docking on most breeds (except for the really short crops like they do with APBTs and amstaffs).  However, if I even happened to own a breed where cropping was traditionaly done, I'd probably not do it for several reasons--1)  The ear taping seems like WAY too much work to me for something that is just cosmetic   2)  I would not feel comfortable putting a pup through surgery just because I enjoyed the look  3)The natural look is really growing on me  [].

I used to have pit bulls.  I never intended to show them so I never cropped their ears.  I will say, personally, I prefer the cropped look on APBT's.
 
As I understand it, APBT ears are not required to be cropped to show but uncropped dogs don't win.

ORIGINAL: VanMorrison
I believe (IMO) that the GSP tails are docked because they are so long and thin that, while hunting, they can be badly hurt.  A damaged tail is very painful for any dog.

 
Documented tail injuries to Shorthairs and Wirehairs who were NOT docked are part of the reason that some countries with docking bans now allow certain breeds of  "working" dogs to have their tail docked.
 
BTW These breeds are hunting/sporting breeds, not "akc working group" breeds.
 
I guess the tip of the tails of some of these dogs are very thin, brittle and injury prone as opposed to the base of the tail which is quite sturdy.  erhaps an unintended consequence of creating these particular pointing breeds?
 
One often-cited study was done in 1990-1991 in Sweden (which banned docking in 1989) after it became apparent that Shorthairs with long tails were sustaining far more tail injuries and more serious tail injuries than dogs who traditionally had long tails. By age 24-30 months, 35% of the Shorthairs had received tail injuries requiring medical care ranging from broken and bleeding tips to major tail breaks, infections, etc. 
 
One out of three dogs by age 30 months seems a tad extreme, doesn't it? I wonder how many of the dogs with chronic tail problems eventually required amputation? (At the end of the study only 15% of the tail injuries had improved, 47% had gotten worse.)
 
BTW It looked like in one country which allowed docking for working dogs, the dogs could not be shown in conformation. If this doesn't change, it will be interesting to see how this plays out and whether "show" lines and "working" lines will diverge.
 
I know there are many breeds where the working and show lines are quite different, but there are many hunting breeds which traditionally have large numbers of combination working/conformation champions.

It's the first thing I look at to tell a BC from an Aussie

Ha ha! You'll have to do better than that for the future. A lot of performance Aussie people I know are leaving full tails on - and even the half tails that some Aussies are born with. However, you can still tell many times - an Aussie still holds its tail at half mast even with a full tail when concentrating, while a Border Collie tends to clamp the tail right down or even hold it between his legs and under the belly, when focusing. It's not anything that is bred for necessarily, just a difference in the way the two breeds approach brainwork.

Breeding for tail set and certainly length is a very tricky and scary thing - you are messing with the spine and rear end assembly too much for comfort, if you ask me. If docking is a way around that, more power to 'em.

Here's an Aussie with a full tail working sheep for the first time:



Here's my Ted pup, HIS first time working:

I can see how hygiene would have been an issue back in the day for Aussies when they were out working without a lot of regular grooming.

Luna gets groomed a lot, but without that, her rear end would be a fur mess, and the potential for poop issues could happen.

JMO, but someone correct me if I am wrong.