The joys of breeding-flame suite ready

pudel

And dwarfism is scientifically and medically considered a deformity so it's neither an opinion nor something that can be argued.

Precisely why I wasn't going to argue with it.  

In the circles I run in,  a deformity would automatically exclude a dog from working.  So, the point really does not hold with dogs that actually "work" as part of a team to provide a set of abilities humans just dont have.

Benedict

That means that even the show dogs should, IMHO be capable of working even if they do not.  Breeding for show just means, to me, breeding with a focus on temperament that will allow for showing - not all dogs have that.

 If the idea is to show them as capable of working, then that is what they shoud be shown for.  How on earth is a dogs appearance in a conformation ring indicative of its ability to herd sheep or to hunt?  And if you want to show for the purpose of temperment, sounds like obedience or CGC would be the right venue for that.

mrv

In the circles I run in,  a deformity would automatically exclude a dog from working. 

A deformity by whose skewed interpretation of its definition?

A breed description I pulled from a google search.  How is that this is considered okay??  I feel so sorry for these dogs:

Pug owners should also be aware of potential for damage to the surface of the prominent eyes of the breed. Corneal scratches can be a serious problem for this dog. In addition, the short snout does not provide much protection for the eyes. This short snout can also be at the root of breathing problems, especially in extremely cold or extremely hot weather. Owners should always be conscious of this.

Pugs can suffer from a form of brain inflammation that is specific to this breed. The common name is Pug Dog Encephalitis (PDE). Most sources of information on this disease state that there is no known cure for PDE. The scientific name for the condition is granulomatous meningoencephalitis. It is believed to be inherited, so this may be one of the topics you should discuss with the breeder as you look at puppies. Any information you can gather on this condition will be helpful later on.

Pugs may also be prone to a condition called hemivertebrae. The condition known as screwtail is just one obvious sign of this. But when hemivertebrae occurs in the internal spine, paralysis can result. This condition occurs when the two parts of the vertebrae do not fuse properly during development. The two halves grown unequally and the resulting shape may put pressure on the spine. Often the dog must be put to sleep, since there is no other avenue for relief. The defect is present at birth and is most common in short muzzled dogs such as the Pug. X-ray evaluation on the very young puppy can show this condition. It would be a good idea to consult with your veterinarian and the breeder about hemivertebrae.

There are a few other health issues new owners should be aware of with Pugs. These include taking care of the facial wrinkles on the unique face of the breed. Dirt, carpet fuzz and other “stuff” can get into the wrinkles and this needs to be cleaned out. The idea is to avoid letting infections or irritations start in this area. Another area that new owners may not always be prepared for is trimming the nails of the Pug. The claws/nails tend to grow quite rapidly with this breed. However, the nails should not be cut too closely because this can cause damage and pain. If you are unsure, have someone with experience take care of the trimming while teaching you how to do it.

Some breed experts will also caution new owners to be aware of the need for Cesarean Section when Pug litters are born. This breed is not one that has a particularly easy time with the birth of puppies. If you are thinking about breeding your Pug later on, you may want to talk at length with other breeders or with veterinarians to make sure you are prepared for any special situations that may arise

 Pudel i think i see your point..... pugs arent working dogs though. they are pets... however they doesnt mean they shouldnt have healthy active lives.when it comes to lap dogs you'll see me turn into a bit of a monster because i dont see a purpose for a breed standard in something that doesnt work... breeding a dog into the ground so it has the perfect curly tail (which hurts the spine) or smashed face(which causes eye and breathing problems) is just cruel to me.... there IS no purpose for that. not one you can justify humanely anyway....

but a dwafism in say.... Corgis? Bassets? Dachshunds? that hasnt gotten in the way of their jobs. there are people STILL hunt with bassets, and doxies... quite actively in fact. whole packs of them following horses!(((saw that somewhere and i cant find the picture anymore)))) corgies are probably still used by some ranchers to do their jobs (i'm not a rancher so i dont know, but i am a hunter and i know a lot of hunters....) 

http://www.bassetnet.com/album.php

however it doesnt take a genius to look at bassets of old and see they dont look a lot like today's version. which is why i said earlier... never the twain shall meet when it comes to work vs show standards.

in my mind a deformity is something that prevents you from being active and feeling good. a dwarf isnt ALWAYS disabled by being a dwarf.

pudel

Benedict

That means that even the show dogs should, IMHO be capable of working even if they do not.  Breeding for show just means, to me, breeding with a focus on temperament that will allow for showing - not all dogs have that.

 If the idea is to show them as capable of working, then that is what they shoud be shown for.  How on earth is a dogs appearance in a conformation ring indicative of its ability to herd sheep or to hunt?  And if you want to show for the purpose of temperment, sounds like obedience or CGC would be the right venue for that.

I do not consider the CGC anywhere near an appropriate test for temperament.  I guess it could be the lowest standard possible, as I think the CGC should be attainable for just about anyone and with any breed, but that's what it's designed for.  It is not intended to be a selective, breed-specific temperament test.  It doesn't test the dog until the majority drop out or break b/c they don't have what it takes.  Obedience does not test temperament either really, it test....well, obedience, biddability I guess.  And even those titles can be obtained by a nervy or aggressive or ill-tempered dog.

Liesje

pudel

Benedict

That means that even the show dogs should, IMHO be capable of working even if they do not.  Breeding for show just means, to me, breeding with a focus on temperament that will allow for showing - not all dogs have that.

 If the idea is to show them as capable of working, then that is what they shoud be shown for.  How on earth is a dogs appearance in a conformation ring indicative of its ability to herd sheep or to hunt?  And if you want to show for the purpose of temperment, sounds like obedience or CGC would be the right venue for that.

That AKC and the like are not the ONLY venues for showing a dog, nor are they ones that a lot of breeders/fanciers give two cents about.  There are other venues in which a dog cannot even attempt to obtain a top show rating without also having certain working titles.

I do not consider the CGC anywhere near an appropriate test for temperament.  I guess it could be the lowest standard possible, as I think the CGC should be attainable for just about anyone and with any breed, but that's what it's designed for.  It is not intended to be a selective, breed-specific temperament test.  It doesn't test the dog until the majority drop out or break b/c they don't have what it takes.  Obedience does not test temperament either really, it test....well, obedience, biddability I guess.  And even those titles can be obtained by a nervy or aggressive or ill-tempered dog.

i agree.. but what i'm curious to know is what this has to do with the reason to breed lol i mean..... what YOU do with a dog doesnt always mean you've met that dog's potential. we've all heard of Air Bud, right? the gun shy abandoned Golden Retriever turned Movie Star? obviously his previous owner gave up. and what one person cant achieve.... another probably can. and so on....

the purpose for showing is just that. it was never intended for anything more than to show off the best examples of a breed... whether they worked for a living or held down the kitchen rug. thats why it was so shocking when the BBC did their film about unhealthy purebreds in the show world. everyone was ASTOUNDED because you've always been lead to believe purebreds are better. but if you watched the people they showcased it was OBVIOUS that those individuals didnt care one lick about the internal health of their dogs. some of them didnt even want to change anything or educate the public about these potential painful birth defects because it would be a mark against them as a breeder. that is a personal problem that those people had. it doesnt mean all show breeders are that way..

All that really means is a pure bred show dog should have to pass a physical. just like any other athletic sport... even though these dogs arent always atheletes they're still dogs.... which are naturally athletic, right? thats not hard to do. get some Xrays, OFA certs, etc etc and then you can show that dog as a true specimen for its breed.

oh and um..... there should probably be something in that physical about bitches being able to birth puppies WITHOUT a scalpel..... 

DumDog

but a dwafism in say.... Corgis? Bassets? Dachshunds? that hasnt gotten in the way of their jobs. there are people STILL hunt with bassets, and doxies... quite actively in fact.

And 1 out of every 4 dachshunds has disc disease because of their conformation.  I was just saying to my husband that while I absolutely adore the breed, I don't think I would get another one for this reason.  I'm tired of worrying about it all the time.

The thing about threads like this is everyone has "their" breed, and every breed has it's own problems.  Even within breeds there are irreconcilable splits.  For example, when I watched the BBC program I was appalled at what I learned about Cavaliers (my favorite companion breed, though I knew little about them) and I thought "thank god MY breed doesn't shrug off a deformity!"  but then I thought that the extreme angulation in some GSDs may be borderline deformity (though it absolutely does not effect the quality of life of the dog the same way the Cavaliers are effected).  There are so many people that are so into just one line or one type that you almost forget the others even exist!

We love our breed. we do not raise dogs in several breeds, just the one we truly love. We have adopted a couple through the years of other breeds but as pets only.

We value the temperament, agility and intelligence of the Ridgeback. We have a great "fit" with this breed.  Dog showing is  fun and addictive and like our friends we generally breed when we are hoping for our next show puppy.  One litter I did not get a pup since I had promised a dear freind and puppy owner her first show dog and I only had 2 girls and 4 boys. She of course had wanted a girl. While she would have let go of her dreams for a show dog I could not. So I placed the companion and drove the show girl to her new home, it was a brilliant match and she is deeply loved. She did finish and has many titles showing the depth of time and effort spent with and by her folks.

I no longer place "show dogs" I place companions.  If I believe you are going to be an awesome home and may show then I match you with a show and  finishable pup with that family. If showing is not important then I work on the personalities and make sure my pups get a great home.

We have a Breeder Take Back policy. For the life of that dog you only have to call and we will come.  We stress Spay Neuter on any dog not being shown. To the extent that we will have our vet do the procedure and do all of the care and rehabbing while puppy is healing. Families have dropped pups off and gone on vacation while we take care of the pup and often any of their kennel mates. For a whopping $4.00 a day. They can not find boarding anywhere this inexpensively, plus there is the Camp Bwana Journal detaling the fun and adventure along with Camp Crafts like plaster of Paris pawprints and nose art is a big plus for them ! 

We encourage CGC with a prize that varies from litter to litter but always is worth the trouble to obtain. The last litter get a photo album started with puppy pictures of their furkid , if they live close enough I will do a photo shoot for them that leaves them with open mouth and a framed print they adore.

Our puppies go home with a Go Home Bag, collar, lead, bowls, 4-5 toys, 5 pounds of kibble and gallon of bottled water with instructions on how to ease them from the well water they grew up on to the new water source. A booklet with photos, pedigree, documents and catalogs. It is imperitive they site with me for a period of time when we will discuss breeding a litter, this is where I whip out the photos of a puppy with an unclosed stomach, intestines on the out side in a thin transparent bag, or the jelly baby, mummy puppies,  etc, etc.. There are vet bills showing what a HEALTHY litter will cost them along with the break down showing simple expenses for that litter.   After having shelled out a large amount of money for the new pup the prospect of the cost to produce a litter is daunting and not welcomed. especially when you show the singlton litters or the massive ones and you detail the prospects of hand feeding and possible loss of the bitch.  And no I never stop there or confine my lecture to new owners of a girl, I also explain about doggie "stds" and the damage that a bitch can do to thier beloved boy when no one is experienced in breeding.  The man who cringed when the topic of neutering came up is undone when I talk about the boy who was torn from his privates to his chest because rather than hold the maiden bitch being bred the owners of both walked away and she not only fought him but pulled away while they were tied before he was able to release. He barely survived and the $11,000.00+ in vet bills helped him live another 3 years but he was understandably never the same.   I did not own either dog , but had known the boy and his owners and wept with them when contacted as they were praying he would survive.  Breeding is not for sissies and if done right you will not be heavily out of pocket but you sure as heck won't have made money either.  Our accountant looked over our bills and rects and his best advice was buy goldfish, he had his family dog spayed that week because his wife had jokingly said hey how about a litter for the kids to see???

I have seen badly bred RRS and I have seen wonderfully bred ones.  we breed rarely and with great care, they are not in our lives to enrich me or mine and unless one of them is discovered and gets a brand new career as a Movie Star I don't see ever getting a spare penny to blow on my expensive  and lifelong  handbag habit ( damn you Louis V!!) . 

I believe in reconstructing the American Concept of what a Breeder truly is , we have a great thread going on in the RR list, many of us feel the same way. We simply need to figure it all out, get our egos out of the way and teach people why there is a decent and select group of people who can be trusted to care for the breed we love and their future.

Bonita of Bwana 

Pudel i think i see your point..... pugs arent working dogs though. they are pets... however they doesnt mean they shouldnt have healthy active lives.when it comes to lap dogs you'll see me turn into a bit of a monster because i dont see a purpose for a breed standard in something that doesnt work... breeding a dog into the ground so it has the perfect curly tail (which hurts the spine) or smashed face(which causes eye and breathing problems) is just cruel to me.... there IS no purpose for that. not one you can justify humanely anyway....

Companionship though is a purpose in my viewpoint.  Companioniship to me is a dog's greatest purpose.  Not all companion breeds suffer from such extremes.  

 Honestly, the BBC exists to entertain - just because it's subsidised by the government that doesn't mean it is always accurate.  I know that program has turned a lot of people off breeding and purebred dogs, but that's like being turned off running or watching the olympics because of the few athletes who test positive for drugs.  Once again the few ruin it for the many.  Not all breeders are like that and when the average public believes that they are, that spells big trouble.  Where, precisely, is the incentive to look for a breeder of healthy Cavaliers if you've resigned yourself to the fact that they're all unhealthy because the television said so, so you may as well get one from any old breeder and just try your luck?  The BBC took the worst of the worst and made a spectacle of it, the full repercussions of which we have not even begun to see.

Like it or not, breeding dogs is an industry that survives on the concept of supply and demand.  Would you by a TV that didn't comply with your state/federal safety standards, hadn't been tested, and didn't have a warranty?  No, you'd buy one that had all of those things and if you bought the first accidentally, you'd demand better next time.  We, the puppy buying public, are not being NEARLY demanding enough in what we ask of breeders in the grand scheme of things, but oh how we love to vilify them for not living up to standards that we as a society have not asked them to live up to.  If people refused to buy health tested puppies from proven parents the supply of them WOULD dry up.  If that company selling faulty TVs could sell a thousand of them a month, why would it bother upgrading its products, when it believes it is already giving the public what it wants - cheap TVs that are only expected to last a few years.  

I'm more than willing to concede that conformation is not the best judge of breeding stock, and if it were going to be then I agree with the idea of dogs having to pass a physical.  That doesn't mean that conformation shows don't have a place in the dog world, because they are fun and a good opportunity for the public to learn about different breeds. 

Laurelin_429

Companionship though is a purpose in my viewpoint.  Companioniship to me is a dog's greatest purpose.  Not all companion breeds suffer from such extremes.  

 I agree with this, and that is why I don't see why having a smashed face, or curly taily, any physical attribute for that matter, makes a dog a better companion than one who does not have that.

 The thing about threads like this is everyone has "their" breed, and every breed has it's own problems. 

I think the problems arise from breeding extreme conformation compared to a dog's natural conformation.  For example, giant breeds - the anatomy of a dog was not meant to sustain a huge body size, and thus giant breeds have a short life span.  To me, that is unacceptable.  Or tiny toy breeds have metablic problems, luxating patellas and collapsed tracheas.  I think the less extreme a dog is the better and healthier.  Problems also arise from small gene pools, and small gene pools are necessary to create breeds.  Another reason why so many health problems are breed-specific.  I think dogs were better off when they were bred to type, rather than tightening up the gene pool so much, and reducing the physical variation so much, to create specific breeds. 

i think to keep them healthy and live longer we're GOING to have to outcross somewhere down the line, 

Border Collies have been a functional breed for 125 years now and a recognizable "type" for 200 years previously.   Granted they have not historically been strict about closed books.   But, outcrosses have not been the norm - sheepdogs are bred to sheepdogs pretty much, because why would a shepherd who lives hand to mouth choose to raise a bulldog/BC mix, with all the expense of feeding it and taking time to train it, on the chance it might improve his line, when he can pick and choose from among his neighbors' studs who he can see doing well at the trials?  Generally outcrosses happened to produce multipurpose dogs, either lurchers or poaching dogs.  These dogs rarely contributed much to the breed - certainly no key dogs have significant outcrosses.

Anyway, Border Collies are one of the healthiest, most genetically diverse breeds out there.  What keeps the gene pool strong and diverse is the fact that many people use the dogs and breed them for their own use, in addition to the trial standard.  Every person has a different way of working, different operation, and needs a slightly different dog.  So, one of the questions we ask when talking to a breeder is, "What kind of livestock do you have?  What kind of operation do you run?" 

A preconditioning cattle operation produces a very different dog from a cow/calf operation.  A range sheep ranch (where my Ted's dam came from) needs dogs that are significantly different from a little hobby farm like I have at the moment (until we've cleared/purchased more pasture).

But all Border Collies are expected by responsible breeders to have the ability to run an ISDS trial course. 

This means that the Border Collie is almost like zillions of breeds in one.  But if you breed two dogs from really different backgrounds (my Ted's dam was a range sheep dog and his sire was a big hill dog from Scotland), you'll get consistent results because they conform to the working standard as well as the needs of the breeder.

That's how functional purpose-driven breeding works to improve an entire breed and ensure its long term health and functionality. 

pudel

and thus giant breeds have a short life span.

They do not all have a short life span.   With careful breeding the naturally long lives of some giant breeds have been preserved.