Doberman attacks family - Pit Bull defends them and kills the attacker

    • Gold Top Dog
    Well, since we all cannot be sure of what the dobe's intent was, I think it's just as safe AND fair to assume the dobe was meaning to do serious damage to whatever he could bite down on. And that's probably why the neck was Kain's second bite.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: IrishSetterGrl

    ORIGINAL: Bobsk8
    I don't know how many dog fights you have seen or been involved with, but once it starts it is very hard for anyone to think clearly. You run on instinct, and hope for the best. Later when you get home, you can sit down and list all the pro's and con's of what happened and who should have done what to whom, but at the time that Dobbie was in the attack mode, and someone could have been killed. If that Pit Bull was my dog, he would be treated to a big steak dinner when he gets out of quarantine......


    To clarify, I didn't say anything about the people's reactions/actions in this, I was referring to Kain's. I believe that dogs know how much pressure to apply with their mouth/jaws when biting. When a dog wrestles with its owner, it won't "bite" its owner's arm nearly as hard as it would an attacking dog. So I just don't understand why Kain attacked at the neck and must've put enough force and pressure in his bite to do some serious damage, and killed the dobe. I know the dog was only protecting his family - I'm not saying he's viscious. I'm just saying that one good bite may have done the trick, and it's unfortunate that the one family had to watch Kain kill another dog and the dobe's family had to watch another dog kill theirs in a split second. It's is a horrible incident, and again I wish the best for Kain and his family.


    I think you are anthropomorphizing to try and analyze how Kain should have bitten the other dog. The analysis reminds me of back in the day when I belonged to my college gun club. There was always this mythological belief that if you had to shoot someone in self defense you could/should shoot to wound. Wrong; you shoot to stop.  You're saying Kain should have shot to wound. Kain did his job. These are dogs.

    Paula
    • Gold Top Dog
    i understand your question and i'm gonna try to answer it as best as i know how.... someone correct me if i'm wrong btw

    logistically all dogs are born with an instinct knowing where the sensitive/vulnerable spots are on themselves and most animals.. neck and belly mostly. which is why when a dog is submissive he exposes these areas to you completely trusting you.
    in a fight, and its been well doccumented, that most dogs, bull dogs and hounds and terriers mostly, that they will automatically go for the neck first, then shake the bejeebus about of it. watch a dog play with a stuffy and you will see this shaking motion.
    i think its pure instinct for a dog to grab the neck first. its the perfect widgth for a dog's mouth, as opposed to nipping the shoulder, which is a harmless "go away, ya bother me" sign. a nip would not have driven the othe dog away, infact it might have changed events into an actually street dog fight with everyone running around screaming and kicking and pulling at the dogs, more damage done to both parties and ... to be honest, a possibly longer and slower death for one or the other. like Nikki_Burr said.. at least the Dobie didnt suffer as much as we would have if his jugular have been cut. The Dobie probably didnt even know what hit him.... which might be the best way to leave this earth... completely and utterly clueless of the fact...
    Dog's generally DONT want to fight, even the bulldogs... but when it comes down to "me and the other guy" a bulldog has the built in instinct to dispatch the other guy quickly.

    this is something i worry about my with my dogs and my cousin's..we both own big American Bulldogs. both are highly protective of their families. not aggressive or territorial. like Kain, Kaydee and Bo can meet and play with any dog and have a good time, but as soon as the other dog gets an attitude then trouble is about to start. Because they're American Bulldogs they are also just as alert with people... my worry is someone antagonizing Bo (he is in a more public setting than my dogs) and he will react to the threat. even if someone meant harm.. getting attacked on the street by a bull dog is just bad news, bad luck, bad out come for all....

    anyway Irish i hope i was able to answer your question... The rule of thumb for bulldog owners is.... dont just assume your dog is a good boy.. he IS a good boy, but like the saying goes.. he may not start the fight, but he WILL finish it.. or die trying. its usually just best to.. like in another thread.. expect the unexpected. when we lived in the city i tried to avoid going near the houses with the reactive or barky dogs... but sometimes they get loose and come to you....
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: paulaedwina
    I think you are anthropomorphizing to try and analyze how Kain should have bitten the other dog. The analysis reminds me of back in the day when I belonged to my college gun club. There was always this mythological belief that if you had to shoot someone in self defense you could/should shoot to wound. Wrong; you shoot to stop.  You're saying Kain should have shot to wound. Kain did his job. These are dogs.

    Paula


     
    I totally see what you're saying. Kain did the right thing by defending his family - a great dog!! I am not accusing him or anything or trying to take away from his heroism, but I just honestly didn't understand why killing the dog was necessary when the dog did not bite the family. If a dog grabs another by the neck and yanks it, it is trying to kill it I think - if you see a hunting dog catch an animal and kill it, they do the same thing. Is Kain a viscious dog? No! It's just that the doggie mind is interesting and I was trying to find an honest answer of why Kain instantly killed the dobe. Thanks for sharing your perspective/idea, though. : ) It brought up a good point..
     
    Anyway......I don't think this thread was posted to incite a debate about whether the pittie "should have" killed the dobe. It is such a tragic incident, and unfortunately a dog is now at the Bridge and another is separated temporarily from his family. Kain protected his family, and should be given lots of hugs and kisses!! Also, no one should ever leave a 10 yr old child alone with any dog....my oh my... [&:]
    • Gold Top Dog
    You know ISG, to go off of what DumDog said; Kai probably read that dobies intent and reacted accordingly. Probably why he went for the kill than the posture or the discipline bite. More kudos for Kai I think.

    Paula
    • Gold Top Dog
    well, i think the thing that sucks most about the whole situation are the breeds involved. more negative stigma.
     
    hey paula-were you talking about a RR forum? if so, can you give me the address?
    • Gold Top Dog
    if you've been involved in an intense situation like this then you'll know what it means to watch everything happen in slow motion..think Matrix... some folks, even animals, have the ability to calculate and react in just those few seconds....
    No doubt the dobie was reading body language of the "intruders"... they were calm and confident (because they didnt know he was there) and when he suddenly appeared they were spooked ... so its possible in the dobie's mind they were up to no good.
    just a thought for the dobie's side and perspective.... my own dogs love people, but if you start acting jumpy, or scared, or nervous then they will posture and watch you closely and dare eye contact from you.... dog's are amazingly good at body language. there are no liars among dogs.... they're always communicating some how, even if you dont notice it... which.. that's you're loss lol
    • Gold Top Dog
    I've been following this thread and I have to say a couple of things. 

    First off this entire situation could have been avoided IF the Dobie's owner was acting responsibly and not letting a 10 yr old boy walk the dog.

    Secondly, if a dog comes running and charging me by myself, I might not be scared.  If my dog is with me I might react differently, but if my children are with me....I'm acting to protect them, and if my dog jumps on the "aggresively barking and growling dog" so much the better.

    Wasn't there a mod who posted a story about a menacing lab outside her child's school that was frightening alot of the parents, and the mod herself?  And that was a FRIENDLY overbearing dog.  Now imagine the same dog acting aggressively...

    Anytime you interject children into the situation with an apparently aggressive/protective dog, the children's fear response eggs the dog on.  The pittie acted appropriately.  Unfortunately one of the dogs died. 

    No matter how you look at it, it's a sad situation that didn't have to happen.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Becca, I am SO glad these people consulted an attorney (and I sure wasn't trying to be Suzie Legal Assistant, but gosh I've seen bad stuff happen). 

    A good attorney is going to weigh all the angles and this one caught a darned good one.  That could have had an unbelievably bad impact on a divorce settlement. 

    Unfortunately, DumDog your experience with the media is far different than in most parts of the US.  The vicious dog story is just tooooooo tasty headline to miss and exploit.  I am *so* glad it was not released to the media.  The chance for this to have backfired and blown up in everyone's face was far far too great. 

    I'm going to venture my 'opinion' in one more place here tho.

    Several folks have asked why Kain 'killed' rather than warned.  Here you have to look to instinct and what a particular breed has been bred to do.  Many many breeds are predators.  Many breeds have been selectively bred so that particular tendencies are apparent -- like a lab wanting something in its mouth, or my bassett/beagle wanting her nose to be on the ground in lieu of all else in life.

    Being a hound mix she's interestingly fearless in the face of a critter or a human 'intruder' -- but she picks her battles.  If it's a machine (even a rolling wagon) -- it's EVIL and she ain't goin there!

    Give her a floppy toy and she'll shake it until she 'kills' it.

    Billy, the spaniel -- another hunting type breed but more to 'scent' or carry back the kill -- he'll mouth something or chew on it, but he won't shake ANYTHING.  It's just not in him.

    Ever see a SMALL terrier like a Jack Russell with a toy -- something say 'rat-sized'??  They will pick it up and snap it back and forth -- if it were a rat it would be dead.  (sorry Nikki - I know you are a rat person, but many of the small terriers WERE bred to be ratters)

    It's instinctive.  More in some breeds than others.  Bull breeds -- from boxers to pits, and beyond -- they were bred to have that bracheocephalic snout in order to have the jaw power to hold and get a grip.  Bulldogs (as in Old English Bulldogs) were originally bred to bait bulls (hence 'bull ... dog').

    And unfortunately we all know pits have often been bred specifically to be dog aggressive and essentially fight to win.  That's no condemnation - it's the breed's history.  The dog is going to act on instinct -- he's not going to think "Oh dear, I'd better be a good representative of my breed here."

    Nope -- my best guess is Kain probably knows better than ANYbuddy what that dobe's intent was because ... quite frankly ... Kain could SMELL him.  Kain didn't just react to "oh my family is threatened" -- my guess is he could smell cold, hard intent-to-kill in that dog as it came at them -- and he reacted to it. 

    None of us were there -- but everything folks have said above about a dog who isn't a true threat will 'circle' and bark. 

    But a dog who makes a solid beeline for quarry, and the mother DID step in front of Kain and the kids, so the dog had to get around her to do this (and the dobe had to get THAT close b/c Kain was on leash).

    My guess also is that KAIN knew he was leashed.  He knew instinctively he was at a **serious** handicap here.  He knew how much leash he had to work with, but he also knew how close the other dog would have to get in order to get TO him and him to get TO the dobe.  Instinctively he had to make the decision to make absolutely ONE strike count, and count utterly. 

    Kain was pretty astute.  If he'd only postured, it would have given the dobe time/space/incentive to have *then* attacked family and then he would have been beyond reach.  Kain probably instinctively knew he had one and only one chance. 

    There's a tendency for we humans to want to be anthropomorphic here and think the dogs should have 'given each other a chance'.  That's not dog thinking. 

    When dogs communicate it's not just sound.  And scent plays such a huge part in sizing up your enemy's strengths, weaknesses and intent.  My guess is Kain smelled no fear at all -- just anger.  I'd bet he had way more "input" than any of we mere humans can guess.  Scientists only guess at how much they know about dog sensory/olfactory perception.  But they get information from that, information that triggers inate responses, that we humans can't even begin to process.
    • Gold Top Dog
    They WILL NOT allow Kain to be PTS and as of right now, have been assured enough that it will NOT happen.

     
    It's good to read that news. And my condolences to the family and to Kain for being in this ordeal. FWIW, Mom, children, and Kain did everything right. And I certainly wouldn't second-guess what Kain should have done. Hopefully, the other mother will receive some more education before she gets her next dog. Although I'm a bit mystified how she could let such an "expensive" dog be so ill-guarded. He could have easily been hit by a car while charging across and down the street. Anyway, good luck to you and your friends and Kain.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: ron2

    They WILL NOT allow Kain to be PTS and as of right now, have been assured enough that it will NOT happen.


    It's good to read that news. And my condolences to the family and to Kain for being in this ordeal. FWIW, Mom, children, and Kain did everything right. And I certainly wouldn't second-guess what Kain should have done. Hopefully, the other mother will receive some more education before she gets her next dog. Although I'm a bit mystified how she could let such an "expensive" dog be so ill-guarded. He could have easily been hit by a car while charging across and down the street. Anyway, good luck to you and your friends and Kain.


    unfortunately, she has 3 other dobes in her possession.[:o]


    Thank you all, and Callie, wonderful post!


    • Gold Top Dog
    I think this goes to show how important it is to report a loose dog that attacks, or is aggressive.


    I agree, but I'll go one step farther - I think all off leash dogs that approach people and other dogs, not under the control of the owner, should be reported.  Why?  Because then the ACO and other authorities have a paper trail of citations that say the owner is a scofflaw, and doesn't manage their dog properly, so that when any incident takes place, the innocent party has a leg (or paw) to stand on.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I felt sick readin this, as I do when any violence involving any dog is presented to me.  I know this is going to be a really hot button issue and after a bad day at work in which several people came in trying to surrender their pets, I'm not sure I'm up for the debate.
     
    This is an awful story and that's all I'm going to say.  Awful for everyone involved, particulary the children who had to witness it.[:(]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

    well, i think the thing that sucks most about the whole situation are the breeds involved. more negative stigma.

    hey paula-were you talking about a RR forum? if so, can you give me the address?


    The forum I was referring to is long dead, but I'll attach a link to the current forum I frequent.

    http://rr-forum.com/forum/index.php

    Paula
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: IrishSetterGrl

    ORIGINAL: Bobsk8
    I don't know how many dog fights you have seen or been involved with, but once it starts it is very hard for anyone to think clearly. You run on instinct, and hope for the best. Later when you get home, you can sit down and list all the pro's and con's of what happened and who should have done what to whom, but at the time that Dobbie was in the attack mode, and someone could have been killed. If that Pit Bull was my dog, he would be treated to a big steak dinner when he gets out of quarantine......


    To clarify, I didn't say anything about the people's reactions/actions in this, I was referring to Kain's. I believe that dogs know how much pressure to apply with their mouth/jaws when biting. When a dog wrestles with its owner, it won't "bite" its owner's arm nearly as hard as it would an attacking dog. So I just don't understand why Kain attacked at the neck and must've put enough force and pressure in his bite to do some serious damage, and killed the dobe. I know the dog was only protecting his family - I'm not saying he's viscious. I'm just saying that one good bite may have done the trick, and it's unfortunate that the one family had to watch Kain kill another dog and the dobe's family had to watch another dog kill theirs in a split second. It's is a horrible incident, and again I wish the best for Kain and his family.


    The point that I was trying to make, was that if people get confused on a second to second basis, as to how to react, how on earth can a dog make a perfect decision, with just the right amount of force?  That is ridiculous in my opinion..  The Doberman attacked, the Pit protected it's family from the attack, end of story. If a  mugger attacks me or my family, the last thing I will be thinking about , is applying just the "right" amount of force so that I don't hurt mugger too badly .  I will probably be thinking more in the lines of smashing his ##@@  head in.. I am sure that is exactly what the Pit was thinking, and the Pit should be commended for his actions.