Doberman attacks family - Pit Bull defends them and kills the attacker

ORIGINAL: DumDog
one thing i am inclined to disagree with is the dobie got close enough to be attacked by a pit on a leash. the pit was behind his owner, if he stepped out... that's pretty danged close... too close.. that dobie wanted some action. if he was going to charge and run a circle around, he would have kept about 8 to ten feet... out of striking range.... i've been charged and circled by rogue dogs while walking my own... they dont get that close... if its a bluff then it would be obvious. a bluffing dog has a good sence of self preservation. he has no desire to fight, kill, or die, but he wants the threat to go away. so if he acts bad enough then maybe it will... fighting is a last resort for a dog that wants to bluff.

I agree. I've also been circled, and even circled with little lunges, but the dogs in question were precise about space.  Thankfully, because my late dog Ivan *would* have gone to town on any threatening dog that got in bite range. 

And honestly, I do feel badly for the doberman and his family.  The doberman may have volunteered, but he was a dog doing what his instincts told him to do.  It should have been up to an adult to keep him in check.  Like a sighthound that gets killed running into traffic. 

my dogs aren't allowed in the front yard, which means approximately a football field away from any public areas, so no, they are not charging passerby, only the UPS delivery guy and illegal trespassers. But most dogs don't really seem to have a clear grasp of the concept of "public sidewalk", all they know is this is their house and those are intruders and their job is to repel intruders.
I wouldn't be afraid of a charging, barking dog. Its the quiet ones you have to watch out for.
And you don't think it's a bit of an over-reaction for a dog to instantly kill another dog? without even trying to bluff it off first? Even if my dog attacked you, I'd be a little upset about you or your dog KILLING my dog. Beat it off with a stick or inflict a few bites, ok, understandable. But death?
This was such a lose-lose situation.

think about the anatomy of both breeds.... if it had been a thicker, wider dog(another pit, or a lab maybe) it might have been an even match.... but a dobie has a neck like a deer... they are designed to look fierce and act fierce and their targets are people. they arent dog killers and werent meant to be... the pit bull on the other hand.. well, need i go on?
 and dog's dont really have a grasp on excessive force either.. not any more than they have a grasp on public or private property signs.. in the wild it is kill or be killed. in a wolf pack, if you're family is threatened by a neighbouring pack then blood will spill.
where i come from a bulldog is a valuable thing because walking out on these abadoned logging roads you can run across stray dogs, wild hogs, coyotes and bears.... the bulldogs were designed to just what Kain did. Kain saw a charging menace aimed right at his family.... so he stopped the threat dead in its tracks.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

oh come now. A dog charges at people barking and growling, on what he considers his turf, is not an attack unless he actually bit someone. Odds are all he was going to do was run around them barking in an attempt to chase them away from his property. And a pit bull killed him. The dobe is the true victim.

Anyone setting foot on my property gets a pack of dogs charging at them barking. They don't attack, they just charge.

For one thing:
UPDATE.

She DID call an attorney and her and her husband are going through a custody battle to get custody of his children and the attorney advised AGAINST making a stink about this right now. The cops came out and spoke with her and her husband spoke with the husband of the neighbor with the dobe. The husband assured them NO legal action would be taken against them or Kain and he apologized for his wife's behavior and he said he was glad that all humans involved were OK and didn't get hurt. I didn't even think, when I posted about this yeterday, about the custody battle they have going on and how media coverage could possibly hurt their case.

They WILL NOT allow Kain to be PTS and as of right now, have been assured enough that it will NOT happen.

Thank you all who gave caring and sincere advice. It was very generous of you. And it shows me that when something tragic like this happens, dog lovers will unite and comb their minds to help other dog lovers in need. I appreciate all the thoughts for Kain.

Mudpuppy-

They weren't on the sidewalk by the dobe's house. They were on the sidewalk across the street and a not in front of the dobe's house when it happened. The dobe left his property (far off his property) to charge at these people.

No, I never meant for dobermans to be painted in a negative breed light in this thread. The fact that the dog was a doberman is not the point. The point is, it was a pretty big dog, charging and barking and growling at them.

What if that dog had meant harm??? Should my friend and her children have been hurt???

Maybe YOU'RE not scared of a charging, barking, and growling large dog, but MOST people are. And the dog was doing and DID a better job of taking care of the situation than any of the humans involved in the situation would have been able to do, AND DEFINITELY better than the owner of the dobe did.

I'm glad you know how to read dogs so well.

I KNOW Kain, have met AND interacted with him a few times. He's not got a mean bone in his body towards humans OR other dogs.
I've stated this clearly in my previous posts. My friend put him behind her and when the dobe kept charging them, Kain got in front of her and took care of the situation.
Being how this situation happened, I'd rather see a dead dog than a dead/injured child. Idealy, I would have preferred it to never have happened and it would NEVER have happened if the doberman wasn't on a leash with a 10 year on the other end.

Yes, unfortunately no one won in this situation. Nothing GOOD came out of it. A dead dog and another quarantined for protecting his family.

Think of it as you will, but Kain is NOT a vicious dog.

Glad to hear that the families are at peace with each other.

mudpuppy, thanks for sharing that perspective, I appreciated reading it. It's hard to know, without having the benefit of being an omniscient observer, what were the possible outcomes in that situation.

ETA: spelling

Wow.  What a horrid situation.  I feel very badly for every single being involved; as you said, no one won here.  Regardless of whether or not the Dobe meant to inflict harm, he still left his property, though I know my own dogs would probably run across the street to see another dog if they were off leash/unfenced in my yard, which they never are.  And I can bet you Cairo's hackles would be up and he'd be howling.  BUT he would not have actually attacked another dog.  The fact that the Dobe got up within biting distance of the pit and his family is a possible indicator of malicious intent.  If he was just intending to scare off the "invaders" would he really have gotten that close? 

In any case it is a rotten situation all around, but I'm glad that Kain will be ok.  And as sad as it is, at least the poor Dobe died quickly without suffering.

Wow - what a traumatic experience for everyone involved. I'm wishing for the best for this family and brave Kain. I have one little concern though. I'm not trying to start something, just honestly curious. Why did Kain go in for the kill, instead of biting the dog/charging it to see if it would back off first? Now, I know dogs don't think ahead or anything, but I believe that if I were attacked Cadie would attack the viscious dog, but not kill it - just do enough to keep it away from me and to a point where its not a threat anymore. The fact that Kain, who I'm sure was just protecting his family, instantly went in for the kill and snapped the dobe's neck concerns me. But maybe I just don't know doggie behavior well enough, maybe Kain could sense/tell that the dog really did want to hurt his family. It's in no way Kain/Kain's family's fault of course though.

I will definitely keep Kain and his family in my thoughts!
 
Edit - mudpuppy, thanks for sharing your perspective as Ixas_girl said. But you said that you would not be scared if a dog was charging and barking at you, but most people would be. The general public I don't think distinguishes between "fake" aggression and "real" aggression - whether the dog is going to act upon it or is just trying to scare. And honestly, you never do know. For ex., Riley is about 5.5 months old. The other night he was in the car with me, in a parking lot. He barked and growled at everyone that passed, and his hair went up on his back. He does that sometimes on walks too - but when someone walks up to him, he kisses them to death and wags his tail as fast as could be. He's like a sweet heart in disguise as a villain, Lol - but he could just as easily be the villain he seems to be when he shows "signs of aggression" ( which they are really not).
 
Whew. Sorry about the length of that. I'm in a talking mood!

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

oh come now. A dog charges at people barking and growling, on what he considers his turf, is not an attack unless he actually bit someone. Odds are all he was going to do was run around them barking in an attempt to chase them away from his property. And a pit bull killed him.  The dobe is the true victim.

Anyone setting foot on my property gets a pack of dogs charging at them barking. They don't attack, they just charge.

Any dog that charges my family after it breaks lose from it's owner is in for a heap of trouble and I mean trouble. This women was lucky that her Pit Bull handled it the correct way.  Three cheers for her dog.....

ORIGINAL: IrishSetterGrl

Wow - what a traumatic experience for everyone involved. I'm wishing for the best for this family and brave Kain. I have one little concern though. I'm not trying to start something, just honestly curious. Why did Kain go in for the kill, instead of biting the dog/charging it to see if it would back off first? Now, I know dogs don't think ahead or anything, but I believe that if I were attacked Cadie would attack the viscious dog, but not kill it - just do enough to keep it away from me and to a point where its not a threat anymore. The fact that Kain, who I'm sure was just protecting his family, instantly went in for the kill and snapped the dobe's neck concerns me. But maybe I just don't know doggie behavior well enough, maybe Kain could sense/tell that the dog really did want to hurt his family. It's in no way Kain/Kain's family's fault of course though.

I will definitely keep Kain and his family in my thoughts!

I don't know how many dog fights you have seen or been involved with, but once it starts it is very hard for anyone to think clearly. You run on instinct, and hope for the best. Later when you get home, you can sit down and list all the pro's and con's of what happened and who should have done what to whom, but at the time that Dobbie was in the attack mode, and someone could have been killed. If that Pit Bull was my dog, he would be treated to a big steak dinner when he gets out of quarantine......

http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/howtobreakupdogfight.pdf

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

oh come now. A dog charges at people barking and growling, on what he considers his turf, is not an attack unless he actually bit someone. Odds are all he was going to do was run around them barking in an attempt to chase them away from his property. And a pit bull killed him.  The dobe is the true victim.

Anyone setting foot on my property gets a pack of dogs charging at them barking. They don't attack, they just charge.

So, what I'm hearing is that the Doberman was excused from acting agressive because it was defending it's property where as the pit, who was defending his people was overreacting. Lemme put it to you this way, a menacing dog got within a dog ON A LEASH 'territory' and acted agressively, how is that different than the dobe protecting it's 'property' (ACROSS the street from it's own property, for petes sake). I would be curious to what you'd be saying if the people were injured or if Kain was the injured/dead dog. I don't like that a dog was killed by a humans stupidity, it hurts my heart. But this situation is cut and dry. Do you like to argue Mudpuppy, because I truly do not get your opinion.. it seems very trollish.

This was definitely a sad accident. Really unfortunate that it had to happen, Kain will be in my thoughts I hope the 10 days fly by.

So, what I'm hearing is that the Doberman was excused from acting agressive because it was defending it's property where as the pit, who was defending his people was overreacting.

 
Very nicely put!  I think that kind of sums up my feelings about this.  It was a horrible unfortunate incident, but the dobie was threatening the pit's family. 

ORIGINAL: IrishSetterGrl

 Why did Kain go in for the kill, instead of biting the dog/charging it to see if it would back off first? Now, I know dogs don't think ahead or anything, but I believe that if I were attacked Cadie would attack the viscious dog, but not kill it - just do enough to keep it away from me and to a point where its not a threat anymore. The fact that Kain, who I'm sure was just protecting his family, instantly went in for the kill and snapped the dobe's neck concerns me. But maybe I just don't know doggie behavior well enough, maybe Kain could sense/tell that the dog really did want to hurt his family. It's in no way Kain/Kain's family's fault of course though.

 
I don't think Kain "went in for the kill" so much as he met the incoming dog and grabbed his neck. He may very well have been trying to drive the other dog off. I believe I read that Kain bit/grabbed only once. It only took one bite and to say that Kain was intentionally trying to kill the other dog with just one bite seems unlikely to me.
 
We weren't there, but I can picture the Dobe charging and Kain moving to meet him and grabbing his neck---the Dobe's momentum and weight probably had as much---or MORE---to do with the broken neck than any intent by Kain. Tragic---but not intentional. Sometimes one dog bite or one human punch can kill.
 
 
I am glad the Dobe's owners are being reasonable and I hope Kain is home soon.

thanks, again, guys.

Oh! And my friend and her family have visited Kain and brought him his favorite toy and some more familiar items for him.


Actually, from what my friend told me (and I think I put this in my first post, but I don't know for sure without looking back and I cannot do that right now). The dobe charged and Kain went in and probably from where he was, assuming the dobe shoved his head around (which could have happened), Kain bit his head first. The dobe didn't stop going for them and Kain got his neck, bit, yanked and snapped.


But I honestly cannot believe that this is being questioned. I mean, question all you want (whoever wants to), but honestly, the dobe was charging at a group of humans, 5 of which were children (and a 2 year old in a stroller) and yes, it's tragic that the dobe was killed, but I'm sorry, if a dobe charged at me, I'd actually probably ALLOW Ella in front of me to protect me. And she would protect me against another dog. I wouldn't trust her to protect me against another human, but another dog isn't going to touch me. That much I know.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8
I don't know how many dog fights you have seen or been involved with, but once it starts it is very hard for anyone to think clearly. You run on instinct, and hope for the best. Later when you get home, you can sit down and list all the pro's and con's of what happened and who should have done what to whom, but at the time that Dobbie was in the attack mode, and someone could have been killed. If that Pit Bull was my dog, he would be treated to a big steak dinner when he gets out of quarantine......

 
To clarify, I didn't say anything about the people's reactions/actions in this, I was referring to Kain's. I believe that dogs know how much pressure to apply with their mouth/jaws when biting. When a dog wrestles with its owner, it won't "bite" its owner's arm nearly as hard as it would an attacking dog. So I just don't understand why Kain attacked at the neck and must've put enough force and pressure in his bite to do some serious damage, and killed the dobe. I know the dog was only protecting his family - I'm not saying he's viscious. I'm just saying that one good bite may have done the trick, and it's unfortunate that the one family had to watch Kain kill another dog and the dobe's family had to watch another dog kill theirs in a split second. It's is a horrible incident, and again I wish the best for Kain and his family.

Kain did exactly what he was supposed to do - he defended his pack. I hope he doesn't get in trouble for this. It is a quality I like in ridgebacks - they are generally discerning. It is said of ridgebacks that while they won't start fights they will generally end them. Some years ago on a ridgeback board a man related an incident; he and his wife were walking their ridgebacks on lead through some park area. The wife was ahead of the husband and, out of his view, she screamed. I guess she screamed in an unambiguous manner because the husband dropped the male dog's lead and ran up the slope to his wife's aid. The male got their first and, according to the wife's story, broke up an attack by two dogs. One (coincidentally) was a dobie, but I forget what the other way. The male killed the dobie  - broke it's neck - and the other dog ran off.

good dog.

Here's the thing; if my dog is at large and threatens someone and gets killed doing it I would be devastated. But how could I then turn around and blame the victims?

Paula