Crating?

ORIGINAL: houndlove

It's the generally accepted rule of thumb to never use a crate as a punishment. However, your definition of "time-out" may not really be a punishment, so that depends on what "time out" means to you. I have used Conrad's crate as what I call a "time out" but all that means is that he's overstimulated or worked up over something, so I give him his "go home" command and then give him a treat or toy to play with while crated and let him chill out in there for a few minutes. To me, that's not a punishment, just management. He loves his crate and goes in willingly on command (and often just on his own to hang out becuase he likes it) and when I send him there I always do so followed by a bone or toy in case he wants to chew while he's in there.

But if you want to use your crate as a confinement option for your dog that they will not mind or even enjoy, don't put bad associations with it. Don't use it as a real "You're being bad bad bad you must be punished!" type of punishment.

 
Yeah, we definitely want Patton to like his crate. Especially with the two crazy cats we already have, I want him to feel like he has his own sanctuary (since the cats like to think they run the entire house. lol).  Patton likes to jump when he is super excited. This incudes primarily when we arrive home from work, when we come back from a walk and/or trip outside to do his business, and when he comes out of his crate in the morning.  When we put him in at night he gets a rawhide (it is the only toy he will have anything to do with) but he sleeps 90% of the time. We don't crate during the day. So that's why I was curious about the "time out" approach. Obviously I don't want to to associate anything negative with his crate. So when my boyfriend said "No jump!" and immediately put him in his crate for one minutes and then took him out, I was wondering if this was a good move to make.

I never used a crate, but not because I think there's anything wrong with it.  It just never entered my mind to do it.  Max, fortunately, had no issues and was very quick to housetrain.  He's totally 100% reliable in the house.  He has a doggy door that leads into a fenced yard, so I suppose you could say that he's "confined" in the sense that he can't leave the yard.  He seems happy enough with his little world.
 
Joyce

sorry late to this thread

ORIGINAL: glenmar

As for burning to death, well, first, very few people or critters actually BURN alive.  Most die of smoke inhalation which is less horrid than actually burning alive.  I have an alarm system that goes directly to the fire department, not for burglers, but a fire alarm.  The fire department has an exact layout of my house and the exact location of my dogs.  The dogs are to be saved BEFORE they worry about the house.  It's just stuff after all.  And it will be one heck of a lot easier and safer for all involved to drag a crate through a patio door than to deal with six loose german shepherds, already afraid because of the fire and then terrified because really wierdly garbed people just broke into their home. My father was a fire fighter and it broke his heart when he had to hurt a dog, crazed with fear, in order to gain access to a house and save the PEOPLE.  But, he did what he had to do to save human life.


It's pretty difficult to "fix" a problem that is not usually a problem and only turns up when a human isn't around.

So yes, I believe in crates.  I've used them for many years to keep my dogs safe when I'm not home, and I'll continue to use them for my own peace of mind AND for their physical safety.

And, since I use leashes in town, I guess I'm just a selfish and lazy owner.  So be it.  I have healthy, happy and content dogs who are safe, loved and cherished, and they darned well know it.

thanks! I have my "babies" in their room when we are not there, have company not comfortable with dogs, or we are working on the house and they would not be of help (ieainting) - other than those times they are out with us, even to sleeping with us @ night - now I think I need to let my local fire dept. know the lay-out of the house & where to find who
 
also their room contains their toys, water bowl, access to the backyard & most importantly - each other (want them to cry & be tear your heart out sad - take 1 of them out of their room when everyone else is shut in)

Crates and punishment:
 
How many of us were at some time or another "sent to our room" as punishment while growing up? Did you grow to dislike your room because of that? I've never heard of a kid making that kind of negative association. Dogs won't either.
 
In order to make a dog dislike their crate, bad things have to actually happen to the dog while inside. Or rather, the dog has to perceive bad things happening to them in the crate. If a dog that is not used to being confined is thrown into a crate and feels trapped, that can lead to a panic attack. That panic attack will make the dog fear the crate.

I crate Belle for a couple of reasons.  First she likes to bark at the window.  Could I train that out of her? Sure but I am single woman and I live alone I kinda like her letting me know when someone is walking by or approaching my apartment.  She knows “quiet” queues and obeys me when I use them.  The second reason I crate her is she gets very nervous when I am not home.  The times I have left her to her own devices she has destroyed something.  For MY good and her good crating is the best solution.  Almost every article and “solution” for separations anxiety has suggested another person be involved in the care of the dog.  Umm…so I MADE her the way she is because I am a single person that lives alone.  Belle is a very happy and well adjusted dog.  I often get complements about how well she does in public. Strange places, strange people/animals, strange noises don#%92t faze her at all.  She can sit through an entire fireworks show and not be bothered at all (she is more interested in eating the French fries and popcorn people drop).  If I am cruel crating my dog while I am not home…that is your opinion.  I know for a fact she is a happy, healthy puppy girl.

ORIGINAL: samshine

Crates and punishment:

How many of us were at some time or another "sent to our room" as punishment while growing up? Did you grow to dislike your room because of that? I've never heard of a kid making that kind of negative association. Dogs won't either.

In order to make a dog dislike their crate, bad things have to actually happen to the dog while inside. Or rather, the dog has to perceive bad things happening to them in the crate. If a dog that is not used to being confined is thrown into a crate and feels trapped, that can lead to a panic attack. That panic attack will make the dog fear the crate.

 
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Well, for a lot of dogs isolation for no reason is a bad thing. You can use it as a punishment if you want, but I'd suggest using a different room for it. Use the bathroom, maybe. That way IF something backfires and the dog begins to associate the room with being punished, it won't screw up your crate training.

The crate is very important for the well-being of one of my dogs and I personally wouldn't risk messing that up.

Well, for a lot of dogs isolation for no reason is a bad thing. You can use it as a punishment if you want, but I'd suggest using a different room for it. Use the bathroom, maybe. That way IF something backfires and the dog begins to associate the room with being punished, it won't screw up your crate training.

The crate is very important for the well-being of one of my dogs and I personally wouldn't risk messing that up.

I agree with this.  For me, crates are different than a time out or go to your room because dogs, unlike humans, do not have the ability to rationalize and understand "hmmm, ok, the reason I am being sent to time-out is because what I did is bad and I shouldn't do it anymore."  Dogs don't work like that.  They're going to think "gee, that person is mean, keeps locking me in this crate when I'm not even tired and everyone else is still out there playing...I hate this crate!"

I crate Jack.  When we first brought him home we very stupidly allowed him to stay in a non-doggy proofed room (i.e. not an empty room!) for the first day alone.  Not a good idea.  He was so mellow and didn't try to mess with stuff when we were around, so we figured... well, I don't know what the heck we were thinking.  To his credit, he didn't actually destroy much (just chewed through the Ethernet cable going to my Xbox 360, which was highly unfortunate), but he did make a big mess.  Trash strewn everywhere, couch cushions removed from the couch, various objects moved around the room.  And he went potty on the floor.
 
So we bought him a crate for two reasons: one, just in case he wasn't entirely potty-trained (it was hard to tell, as we expected accidents when he first came home), and two, so that he could go somewhere safe while we couldn't supervise, and his puppy tendencies wouldn't get him in trouble.  He's only about 10-11 months old now, and I wouldn't dream of leaving him alone in the house unsupervised.
 
I do leave him in the backyard while I'm at work, unless the weather isn't good (here in Northern California, it's pretty much great until winter, at which point it will rain some days, and be great the rest).  I do wonder sometimes whether I should crate him instead of leaving him in the yard, and I'm still not sure what the right answer is.  He has access to water and his dog house in the yard, plus toys.  I think he sleeps most of the day when I'm at work, anyway, so it probably makes little difference.  We live on a court, fairly secluded, and he's not a barker (it's extremely occasional, and when it does happen, it's never prolonged).
 
Jack goes in his crate to sleep, or when there's some reason we can't supervise him, don't want him in the backyard, and need to make sure he's safe.  Those times are generally very short-term.  He also goes in there if we're going to be out late and don't want to leave him outside until we get home.
 
We have two senior little dogs who are not crated (and stay in the house) while we're gone.  Our deaf and nearly blind 15-year-old Pekingnese, Max, who really does sleep almost all the time, and 11-year-old Pomeranian Mia, who is pretty settled during the day, and has no chewing/destructive tendencies.  They do sleep in their crates at night, though. 
 
It's my goal to wean Jack off the crate as he enters adulthood, but I'm not going to leave him in the house unsupervised until I'm quite sure he's trustworthy.  That may be some time from now.  I do make a habit of leaving him alone in the den on occasion while I run outside or go upstairs, etc., to give him opportunities to "be good" when left alone.  But even when the time comes that I can trust him in the house alone, I will never leave him in the same area as the little dogs.  He has no idea of his size and has accidentally tumbled Max once or twice (Max just shook himself and went on his way), and Mia hates him with the fire of one thousand suns.  She antagonizes him, barking constantly and biting at his ankles.  They will always be kept separate when we're not there for his own protection!
 
I think crates can definitely be abused, but they're a helpful tool for dogs who cannot be trusted when left alone, either for the safety of your house/belongings, themselves, or for the sanity/comfort of your neighbors.  It's silly to put down a blanket statement that crates are mean-spirited.  Jack isn't in love with his crate (he'd rather hang out with me), but all I have to say is "go to bed", and he goes right in.  We keep his crate next to our bed, so he's always close, but we don't have to worry about what he might be getting up to when we sleep.  He always gets a bone or kong or toy when he goes in, so I don't think he feels it's such a bad deal. 

I don't like to think of putting a dog in its crate as punishment, it's more just a settle-down period to get their mind off whatever they were doing. For reason, I don't think putting a dog in its crate really stops it to from doing most bad behaviours... maybe barking.

i agree with the "settle down" period.  sometimes when theyre acting up, you both a need a break.
 
but the dog has to know that that is HER den, and a safe haven for her, a place that if she were EVER were to go in there, it's off limits to EVERYONE else.
 
And the only way to do that is to crate her often with good treats, and toys and when she WASNT being bad.
 
After CoCo got spayed, it was the first and only time she left us and quietly went into her crate to rest on her own...since it was in a different room and she can be alone.
 
That just prove to me that they know they need it for their own good as much as we know it.

Brown and Grey stay out when we're gone, but they're both laid back and don't do things like de-stuff the couch (although Grey did find those hot dog buns that day...). [] They only have access to the living room and kitchen, where the couch and water are, respectively, so their two biggest concerns are met. Should something strange happen and one of us is gone longer than expected, my mom or dad will go over to the house, check on the boys, let them out to pee, etc. So someone is always close by for them.
 
Tar is crated when we leave, unless I'm just going to my mom's. Tar came to us already crate trained (well, a little), and while he got used to life with us, we crated him at night until we were sure he was potty trained. Eventually, he started to sleep with the crate door open, and after a while, he traded his crate for a bed. Now, we mainly use the crate if no one will be home for a few hours, and he's very intent on going in his crate in the morning before one of us leaves. He waits patiently on his bed until someone says "kennel," then he bursts through the bedroom door to get into his crate.

Maggie CAN'T be crated. Period. End of sentence. When I tried to crate train her it, at the best, resulted in a heavily panting dog that barked pretty much non-stop and was covered in drool by the time I returned. At the worst, crating equalled a bent crate bar or broken plastic and bloodied gums, shredded towels, plus all of the above. With the typical desensitization program of planned departures I was able to get her to be settled in a crate for 10 mins before she started to bark - and that was also with ignoring, treat toys, and soothing music, plus herbal meds. So we've pretty much given up.

it sucks - I'd like my dog to feel secure when crated for those times she's at the vet's or boarded, but it just won't happen and we will work around it.

i believe crates have their place (especially when it comes to house training and keeping chewing dogs safe, but they are not a solution for everything and certainly aren't always the best thing for dogs with separation anxiety. In fact my behavior prof has said that he has the most success in treating dogs with separation anxiety when he has the owner leave the dog out of the crate when they leave (among other things)! Pretty interesting how different peoples' experiences can be!

I believe that those who think crating is cruel and hurtful do not know their dogs. Dogs are den animals and feel safe in their own space. It is a natural place for them to den while sleeping and if not misused by uninformed persons is benificial in calming a nervous animal.

We use crates for Tyson, Ace and Sadie. I can't imagine having them without the crates. Bo wasn't crate trained and behaves alone so he isn't crated ever. Tyson destroyed my furniture when he was left alone for just an hour from the time that my DH left for work until I got up. The pups have always been crated from the time that I brought them home. They were always put to bed there and we put them there if they fell asleep during the day and when we left. Even now when they are almost 6 months old I put them in them a couple of times a day while we are home for a nap. They will go in them and peacefully sleep for an hour or two, they are let out when the wake up. With the four dogs playing all the time no one would get any peace if they weren't trained to take a nap. It has also made a huge difference in housebreaking them. Tyson will go into his if he is overwhelmed or just wants a place to sleep and not be bothered. I think that if a dog is comfortable with the crate and doesn't panic about being crated then crates are invaluable in protecting the dogs and your home so that we can continue to coexist. I would only be able to have one dog if I didn't have crates because they are APBTs and couldn't be left alone together safely and my home doesn't really allow for them to be seperated without crates and I would never feel comfortable leaving one of them in the yard while I am gone. Having crates in my house gave a home to three more dogs that needed a home.