Crating?

Reasons for needing to use a crate:

I know this is an American forum,but if you need a hundred reasons for not needing a crate visit one of the many British/European/Australian dog forums and see how they manage without them []

You hear of people who crate because their dogs would fight if left alone,or chew the house down and all manner of excuses.But if they were to be totally honest and unselfish they would put the dogs needs first and make the situation easier on the dogs instead of putting a bandaid on the problem by crating them for hours on end.

I would like to know what I can honestly and unselfishly do to discontinue confining my dogs, and still be able to take care of their (rather expensive) needs?

I confine my dogs, every day. They're not crated. Both are adults, and both are very prone to UTIs, so they're in x pens, with an open crate (full of bedding), a water bowl, and a pee pad. They're in thier pens while I'm at work, and out one at a time at lunch and while I'm at home. My dogs never have physical contact with one another. Teenie and I both wear good sized scars from the last dog fight, and she is the aggressor. I'd rehome her, except that she is ten years old, has the beginning of a degenerative disease, has special dietary needs, contact allergies, bad teeth, luxating patellas, and serious behavioral issues. I've *tried* to rehome her, but anybody who wants her is turned off when she snarls in their face, so I keep her. I don't see anything wrong with confinement, that keeps them safe.

I use crates in the car. I don't want dogs in my face while I'm driving, or flying dogs if we end up in an accident (which has never happened, thank God). My dogs understand that the crate is their own spot, and will run into their crates with bones and chewies, to eat in peace. They're content in crates at the vet's office or grooming shop, and they're both fine to travel any distance, with me. They have been taught that crates are a happy place, since I've had them, and the crates have saved me a lot of trouble and heartache. Both of mine are major chewers, and will occasionally eat something that's a major no-no, even though they're adults.

I am a big believer in suprivision. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I probably wouldn't have to confine them. I could just build a huge house and hire them a staff[] Until that happens, they'll be confined, and happy about it.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

Being a person who shows, and thus travels and spends time in unfamiliar places that hold many stimuli, the value of a crate extends beyond the home. I am definitely not anti crate, any more than I am anti pinch collar or e collar...providing the owners uses the device PROPERLY and after due instruction and research.

Agreed.  Crate training literally saved Sally's life when we first got her.  She was a stray that I took in who was a year old and not housebroken who had severe seperation anxiety.  I knew very little about dogs and was able to housebreak and ease her fears using the crate.  We were renting at the time, so we could not really have a dog tearing up the enitre apartment while we were out.  The other alternative would have been to take her to the humane society.  Since people are not exactly standing in line to adopt shy, untrained, young adult pit bulls I don't think the outcome would have been good for her.

We still crate her when we go out.  She calmly goes right into her crate and curls up and sleeps while we are gone.  If she is not in the crate she frantically runs to all the windows, yelps, and trembles.  She feels safe in the crate, so that is where we put her.

Jack has been crated more than he normally would due to his elbow issues and the surgery.  Eventually we would like to set it up where he has a room (with his elbow we would like him to move around a lot).

Someone is almost always home so extended crate stays aren't often needed for my crew, but, yes, NEEDED is the word if we are not home.  No one eats furniture when I'm home....they never even give it a sideways glance, but, by golly once a gsd learns to commit stufficide, anything stuffed is just a giant stuffy to them.  That includes the furniture.  It's not possible to correct and redirect if I'm not HERE to correct and redirect.
 
As for burning to death, well, first, very few people or critters actually BURN alive.  Most die of smoke inhalation which is less horrid than actually burning alive.  I have an alarm system that goes directly to the fire department, not for burglers, but a fire alarm.  The fire department has an exact layout of my house and the exact location of my dogs.  The dogs are to be saved BEFORE they worry about the house.  It's just stuff after all.  And it will be one heck of a lot easier and safer for all involved to drag a crate through a patio door than to deal with six loose german shepherds, already afraid because of the fire and then terrified because really wierdly garbed people just broke into their home. My father was a fire fighter and it broke his heart when he had to hurt a dog, crazed with fear, in order to gain access to a house and save the PEOPLE.  But, he did what he had to do to save human life.
 
As far as crating at nite, we used to rotate who of the four boys who always sleep in the crates stayed out.  Doesn't work anymore.  They WANT to sleep in their crates and move heaven and earth to get there.  The doors aren't closed or latched, but the dogs are determined that they are going to go to bed in THEIR beds. 
 
I have the huge metal crates....easily large enough for two german shepherds to share and still have room to move around.  Each has his/her own giant crate.
 
And yes, I do have concerns about someone getting a wild hair while I'm gone.  I have six dogs, 5 of them are male, and they are large, powerful dogs who sometimes get snippy with one another.  And in typical pack fashion, if two go at it, the others rush into the frey.  One word from me is enough to stop any nonsense before it turns ugly.  But if I'm not here?  They can go for weeks without the first grumble, but it can be something so tiny we don't even know what started a squabble.  A word will stop it, but, again, someone has to be here to SAY the word.  I'm not sure how I would alter the basic dog nature so that I never ever have to say "the word" and I sure don't know how I would be able to not worry myself sick that someone would get pi$$y over something while I'm gone and I'd come home to dead dogs because it got out of hand.
 
It's pretty difficult to "fix" a problem that is not usually a problem and only turns up when a human isn't around.
 
So yes, I believe in crates.  I've used them for many years to keep my dogs safe when I'm not home, and I'll continue to use them for my own peace of mind AND for their physical safety.
 
And, since I use leashes in town, I guess I'm just a selfish and lazy owner.  So be it.  I have healthy, happy and content dogs who are safe, loved and cherished, and they darned well know it.

ORIGINAL: Edie


I think for me, in a nutshell anything that stifles a dog or impairs it in any way or causes it pain i am pretty much against,such as crating,shock/prong collars,de-clawing for cats,de-barking etc etc Especially when it is purely only for the best interests of the owner,not the dog! [:@]

If I just let Tojo be Tojo and Loki be Loki without limitations, I would very quickly be homeless and poor. Why? Because I would get kicked out of my apartment for Loki's barking, fined for the damage Tojo did, and spend my remaining money replacing items that they ruined daily.

Best interest of the human? Sure. But consider that if I were homeless and poor, my dogs would be too. Crates are NOT purely in the interest of the human, they're to keep the dog safe and prevent them from being impossible to live with. As it were, self-actualization does not seem to be necessary for a dog's wellbeing. As far as the other things you mentioned, they really have no comparison to crates, because crates don't cause pain to dogs.

Also, you're speaking out against people who leave their dogs in their crates 16 hours/day. That's quite different from me putting Tojo in his crate with a meaty bone or a stuffed kong while I go pick up some groceries and I think it's extremely illogical to try to group all crate users into the same category.

All of mine were or have been crate trained as puppies for the obvious reason.  Every single one of them go in and out at will when I'm home, and all except the puppy go in to nap if they want to get away from the others.  At bedtime, or when I leave for work, all I have to say is kennel-up and each goes in their own cage, sits down, and waits for whatever treat is coming their way.  The only time anyone has ever shown any reluctance was the first few nights as a puppy, and that would happen just about anywhere.

I get up an hour and a half earlier than I absolutely have to in order to make sure that everyone has plenty of outside and play time before I leave for work.  The dogs are first priority when we get home.  The longest they spend locked up is 6 hours.  Not one of them is unhappy to go in, so for us it works.

We did not crate train Nikki (my Mom's pup), only because she was a shelter dog that associated crates with a bad place (we suspect her previous owners used crates in the WRONG way entirely).  Thankfully Nikki didn't destroy too much stuff....although she's not GSD she learned stufficide and we lost a pillow or two and any stuffed animal she managed to snag.  There was also that toilet paper incident (although I must say she decorated the living room in it quite beautifully lol).

At any rate our future pup will be crate trained.  I feel in case of a fire it's easier to drag a crate than to go looking for a scared animal.  Additionally the crate can become a "second home" away from home.  If we end up getting a second dog at some point, I want them to have a place that is soley THEIRS that they can go to to take a break.  Plus it saves the worry of thinking they may be chewing something inappropiate like electrical wires.  Yes there's training involved, I'm not going to rely on the crate for that....but sometimes when your not home, a dog may just decide to act like a dog after all. 

I crate Riley for the same reasons mentioned by many here - he is still very much adjusting to his new home, he tends to get anxious, and he goes bonkers when I'm not here if he's in his crate. He is infinitely calmer in his crate - he gets a kong, water, nylabone, assorted other goodies, and he does not work himself up into a frenzy running from window to window watching people and animals scurry back and forth outside the apartment (we live in an apartment complex in a major metro area). You can almost see him relax when he lies down in there, and he does often choose to sleep in there when he's feeling overwhelmed in general, even if I am home (the door stays open then, of course). Is he pumped to go out for a run when I get home? Yup, and I make certain that he's never in the crate more than 6-8 hours, ususally less because I come home to let him out during lunch, and that he gets upwards of 2 hours of running/playing in every day. But he has spent the day realxed versus anxious, and hasn't gotten me evicted for barking or eaten my carpet/furtinure.

His previous owners abused the crate. He was in there for 18+ hours per day, which, given that he is an 80-pound, 2-year-old Lab, is nauseating and infuriating. Particulaly given this history, I would eventually love to get him comfortable out of a crate (this is what I was able to work towards with my previous two Goldens), but that's not going to happen overnight.

In sum - crating can be a useful tool, and, when used correctly and not as some sort of punishment, I think it can be beneficial to human and to dog.

Crating saved Conrad's life. When we adopted him, he was suffering from severe seperation anxiety. Until you've seen what a 90 lb dog can do in the throes of a panic attack, maybe you won't understand the value of crating. And before crating we literally tried everything. We tried all of the desensitization recommnded for SA dogs, all of the training, we tried the medication, too. Several different kinds actually. We were having family meetings about rehoming but let's be real here: Who wants a large mixed breed dog with SA so severe he was breaking through windows?  But we simply could not keep him in that state. He was miserable, I was miserable, my husband was miserable, our house (rented, I might add) was being destroyed, our bank account was being drained. Finally, as a last resort because I too used to think it was cruel, we tried crating. The wire crate was a bit of a disaster, I'll admit and I thought that really was the end of the road.  [as I'm typing this Conrad just got up from where he was laying next to me and went over to lay in his crate]  But I decided to give a go with an old plastic crate that had been left at our house by a previous tenant. I cleaned it out, disinfected, and gave it a shot. And it was like magic. Seriously, it was night and day for our poor dog. Finally, a place he could feel safe and comfortable in. We didn't even have to train for it, he immediately went right in, laid down and relaxed. I shut the door and walked away and he closed his eyes and went to sleep. From that moment on, his SA was no longer an issue. He's been crated when alone for the past 5 years. Yes, that means 8  hours while I'm at work.
 
Sometimes I work at home and I can tell you for a fact what my dogs do during that time: they pick one spot on the floor or a favorite couch and they sleep. They don't even move around the house and sleep--they are conked for 4, 5, 6 hours at a time. Dogs are crepuscular: they are naturally active at dawn and at dusk. During the daylight hours, they sleep, and at night they sleep.
 
My other dog has a crate and I do use it periodically but not for long periods. He doesn't need it. He has his own room that keeps him out of trouble in the rest of the house and since he doesn't suffer from SA he doesn't need the calming effect of close confinement. I did however crate him during the days when I was at work for a couple months to aid in housetraining. He was 2 when we adopted him but had never lived inside a house before. About 6 months after we got him, after he graduated from his crate but before I was putting much effort into giving him his own secure area, he found a bottle of ibuprofin that my husband had left out, chewed it up, ingested several of the pills, and had to spend 4 days (and $1700) in the hospital. He really rarely got in to stuff while we were out of the house but just that one time, with that one thing, was more than enough to convince me that, for his own safety, he should not be given free run of the house during the day.
 
Something I have noticed, at least about Australians who are anti-crate is they advocate leaving dogs outside in yards during the day. And that doesn't fly here in the U.S., not for me. It's too unsafe. Anyone could walk up to my yard and steal my dogs, or throw something poisonous over the fence, shoot them with bbs, kids could torment them. And they would robably bark from boredome or at all the stuff they're seeing out there and I don't think my neighbors would appreciate that.  So given that outside is not a possibility, what would someone who is anti-crating recommend for a large dog with severe seperation anxiety who's owners have tried all of the other protocols with no effect?

I don't understand why anyone would NOT want a crate with a new dog....
 
I had three crates for Luke when I picked him up from the pound -- One at home, one at work and one in my car.  The one in the car taught him how to travel nicely (quiet and still) until he outgrew it.  The one at home taught him where to sleep at night and the routine of going to bed and staying there until the human gets up.  It was also his special place where he would often retreat at other times of the day.  The crate at work was rarely used -- except for that I'd often leave him here on the rare occasions that I had to leave him alone (because it's air conditioned here and so that I wouldn't have to worry about bugging my neighbors if he was a barker, which it turns out he's not).
 
For the first year I had him, Luke was pretty much with me 24/7 -- and if not with me, often being watched by my parents -- so nighttime was basically the only time he was in his crate.  After about six months I started to leave the door open (he stayed in there).  I got rid of the crates after one year because I was tired of the space they took up.  By that time I was leaving Luke loose in my apartment when I had to leave him, as he was proving himself trustworthy.
 
This year I had to get a crate for going to our agility shows and I can tell that Luke likes having his own special house again.  Half-way through a show day he actively seeks out his crate after a run, knowing that he can relax in there.

The dog I had before my shelties did not need a crate and I rarely used one. He had one, but he used it like a bed with the door open. He was two years old when I got him though, never showed any desire to chew anything, and had few potty accidents.
 
I use crates for my shelties, but my plan is to phase them out as they get older. Right now I use them for when I am not home, which is two hours at a time at most, and at night. It has been a big help for potty training and preventing the destruction of the house, but a large part of it is for their safety as well.

I'm not a big fan of crates, but they have benefits some of the time. Pretty much all dogs need to be taught to accept a crate because there may be a medical roblem and you don't want the dog fighting the crate while they have IV lines in place or just generally need to stay quiet.
 
We didn't use a crate when either Tasha or Wolfgang were puppies. With Tasha it did take longer to housetrain her and she destroyed more than she would have with a crate. However she had no tendency to ingest what she destroyed so it was our loss and not her little problem. Wolfgang was always good. He housetrained almost immediately and only destroyed two items.
 
My dogs actually have access to both inside and outside when we are gone. That obviously doesn't work in all situations. They are well past the point of destroying anything beyond a roll of toliet paper (Tasha) so we don't even have one set up. I do use a crate with fosters.
 
In situations where the dog may harm themselves a crate is IMO necessary, but I prefer to give as much freedom as possible.

I am somewhat confused by when to crate my dog and when not to. Originally we got Patton his crate because he was urinating at night even after he had just been let out. Also, our cats seem to think he is a toy and love to play with his tail. So when it was bedtime, we either had to deal with him piddling on the carpet or the cats distracting him from settling down by chasing him. And if we tried to lock them out of the bedroom we would just listen to the torturous sound of cat cries. [:@]
 
Now that we crate him at night, in our bedroom, with a sheet over the top and 3 sides he sleeps all night It is such a joy! He has gotten better about going in with being lured by a treat too but he won't go in and just hang out by himself.
 
However, he still has a few faults- like jumping. He LOVES to jump on us in his excitement (dispite the "turn and ignore training technigues, etc. that we have tried) This morning my boyfriend put him in a "1 minute timeout" in his crate for jumping. I explained to my boyfriend that a crate is supposed to be atton's "safe" place, not a punishment place, otherwise we will have problems getting him to go in at night. But my boyfriend sheepishly explained that he saw that "1 minute crate timeout" on Cesear Milan's show. So now we are conflicted and have no clue the proper way to use our crate! [sm=banghead002.gif]

It's the generally accepted rule of thumb to never use a crate as a punishment. However, your definition of "time-out" may not really be a punishment, so that depends on what "time out" means to you. I have used Conrad's crate as what I call a "time out" but all that means is that he's overstimulated or worked up over something, so I give him his "go home" command and then give him a treat or toy to play with while crated and let him chill out in there for a few minutes. To me, that's not a punishment, just management. He loves his crate and goes in willingly on command (and often just on his own to hang out becuase he likes it) and when I send him there I always do so followed by a bone or toy in case he wants to chew while he's in there.

But if you want to use your crate as a confinement option for your dog that they will not mind or even enjoy, don't put bad associations with it. Don't use it as a real "You're being bad bad bad you must be punished!" type of punishment.

I've got dogs who, upon being given the command, literally jump over each other to get to their crates and wait for me to come by and give them their goodies and shut the doors, because their entire lives with me the crates have always equalled good stuff coming their way, and never anything bad.

I never crated a dog prior to Molly. But she NEEDED to be crated while left alone. Destruction was her word of the day.
Now she's nearly 2 years old and doesn't get crated anymore. I crated her in the beginning to not only protect my house/belongings but to also keep her from hurting herself