Help me understand.............

    • Gold Top Dog

    Most of the people who "are and then they aren't" are what I'd call bisexual.  And often they're confused and experimenting ... and frankly many of them are part of the entertainment world and it is this week's great publicity. 

    But in the real world, in all of the many, many, MANY gay folks I've known I've never known anyone who truly considered themselves gay or *** who then changed their minds.  I've known a few folks who were bisexual and who were experimenting (many times because they'd had a really sour, bad experience with someone of the opposite gender) but none who were the sort of folks who are seriously committed enough about their relationship with someone to want to marry them.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    whtsthfrequency

    Ah hah, but is that not the same "slippery slope" arguement that many people have opposing the ban?

    I don't think so.  Not really.  *No on #8* would not have interferred in any way with anyone's rights.  It would not have forced acceptance on those who don't approve.  I'm sure there are people out there who don't approve of or accept interracial marriage, either. *Yes on #8* actually changes the constitution of the state (a constitution which BTW actually forbids discrimination) in order to discriminate. That's the reason I can see this being overturned either at the state level or ultimately going all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Joyce

    • Gold Top Dog

    fuzzy_dogs_mom
    I don't think so.  Not really.  *No on #8* would not have interferred in any way with anyone's rights.  It would not have forced acceptance on those who don't approve.  I'm sure there are people out there who don't approve of or accept interracial marriage, either. *Yes on #8* actually changes the constitution of the state (a constitution which BTW actually forbids discrimination) in order to discriminate. That's the reason I can see this being overturned either at the state level or ultimately going all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Joyce

     

    I agree.  Minnesota tried the same thing in 2006.  To actually change a state's constitution to purposely include discrimination is a HUGE deal.  It didn't work.  I was stunned that prop 8 passed.  There will be a long court battle but ultimately I really don't see how it can stand.   

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
     

    But in the real world, in all of the many, many, MANY gay folks I've known I've never known anyone who truly considered themselves gay or *** who then changed their minds.  I've known a few folks who were bisexual and who were experimenting (many times because they'd had a really sour, bad experience with someone of the opposite gender) but none who were the sort of folks who are seriously committed enough about their relationship with someone to want to marry them.

    Me and my friends having a running 'joke' about bisexual's and seeing as most of them are, we're all cool with it.

    "...If your a girl, and your with a guy - your straight. If your a girl with a girl, your gay. If your single - your Bi...."

    the joke runs both ways. And, works pretty well. Seeing as most of my friends have no issue with girl/girl or guy/guy.

    I am what my friends consider 'bi-playful' as in - I have no isses kissing girls or acting like a gay couple in public, but I would never go further then that. I like guys(except when I have a few drinks or if we're just trying to get the guys next to us at the stop-light to stare and go OHMYGEEEZ!!! hehe).

    I believe in marrige - no matter what gender. Love is love. And, if they want to get married(and probably be misrible - like 90% of America) let them! 15 years ago inter-racial marriages were just as frowned appone.

    It's someone else's personal life - it has nothing to do with anyone else.

    And that's all I'm going to say about it - if anyone has any issues with my view on this - please feel free to message me, maybe you can change my opinion.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jenn52
    So sisters and brothers should marry? Mothers and son? Father and son? Why shouldn't polygamy be legal? If anyone should be able to marry anyone they want, why not allow everything?

     

    No, I don't think that they should. 

    I also don't think that people should be having sex outside of marriage or be cheating on their spouses.  In fact, having known people who have cheated, I would vigorously argue that those situations had much more of a direct negative effect on the lives of others than a couple of guys getting married would have. 

    However, we don't make these things illegal, nor should we, because it is not any of the government's business what happens in peoples' personal relationships so long as people are consenting and not having crimes committed against them.  Just because something bothers me does not necessarily mean that there should be a law against it.

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    PurplePets22
     I don't think anybody is suggesting that the legalization of same sex marriage would lead to these sort of situations. 
    But as soon as you stop defining marriage as man and a woman, and turn it into, any two people who love each other, then you cant exclude incest or polygamy. And just like that marriage lost its definition.
    • Gold Top Dog
    One question I have is, why can't gays have a civil union and straight people have marriage? Why do they have to be the same word? Being gay is different from being straight. Gays cannot biologically reproduce with each other. Gays cannot consummate a marriage (Bill Clinton gave us the definition of sex). Why can't we just establish that they are two distinct types of relationships and let it be?
    • Gold Top Dog

    jenn52
    PurplePets22
     I don't think anybody is suggesting that the legalization of same sex marriage would lead to these sort of situations. 
    But as soon as you stop defining marriage as man and a woman, and turn it into, any two people who love each other, then you cant exclude incest or polygamy. And just like that marriage lost its definition.

    How does the definition of a man and woman stop incest?  Incest can take place between a man and woman...

     

    As for the difference between calling the union of two people, a civil union, or marriage, that is just fussing over semantics.  Stating someone can't use the word marrage because they are gay is a scary thought to me.  One giant leap backwards from freedom of speech.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jenn52
    One question I have is, why can't gays have a civil union and straight people have marriage? Why do they have to be the same word? Being gay is different from being straight. Gays cannot biologically reproduce with each other. Gays cannot consummate a marriage (Bill Clinton gave us the definition of sex). Why can't we just establish that they are two distinct types of relationships and let it be?

     Because "separate but equal" doesn't work.  If we learned nothing else from the 60s we learned that. Gays may not be able to reproduce with their partners, but they certainly can reproduce.  I personally know gays and lesbians that have their own children ... and what in the world would make you think they can't consummate a marriage?

    Joyce

    • Gold Top Dog

    jenn52
    Being gay is different from being straight.

    The only difference is one's intimate partner.

    jenn52
    Gays cannot consummate a marriage (Bill Clinton gave us the definition of sex).

    Yes they can unless you can put into law that consummation is the one act most usually accomplished by a hetero couple. But immediately, I can envision to lesbians with an array of toys. And Clinton's def of sex is nothing to quote. Not only was he wrong but none of you here would accept his definition of not-sex as it might apply to your significant other.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Krissim Klaw
    How does the definition of a man and woman stop incest?  Incest can take place between a man and woman...
    I was referring to incestuous marriage.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sorry, I guess I am just old fashioned but I still believe a penis was designed for a vagina. It's the only way to naturally conceive children. I believe men and women complement each other for a relationship in a different way that a woman/woman or man/man do. I believe children thrive best with a mother and a father. I think the way God designed it was the right way. Let's also not forget that every other civilization that has allowed immorality and corruption to run rampant has met demise.
    • Gold Top Dog

    jenn52
    I think the way God designed it was the right way. Let's also not forget that every other civilization that has allowed immorality and corruption to run rampant has met demise.

    So God made man, right?  Some men are gay and some women are gay...God made them too, right?  They too shoud be accepted.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jenn52
    One question I have is, why can't gays have a civil union and straight people have marriage? Why do they have to be the same word? Being gay is different from being straight. Gays cannot biologically reproduce with each other. Gays cannot consummate a marriage (Bill Clinton gave us the definition of sex). Why can't we just establish that they are two distinct types of relationships and let it be?

     

    On the one hand.....I don't care if we use a different word, as long as the definition of "civil union" is changed.  Actually, in the eyes of the law all marriages are civil unions.  "Civil" meaning "established by law" and "union" meaning "the act of joining two or more things into one".  Every single one of you who is "married" is party to a legal contract between you and your partner.  That contract is governed by the state and recognized by all other states in this country and all other countries in the world.  "Marriage" brings a lot of religious, spiritual and personal connotation to the table.   A couple people here have stated that the piece of paper given to them doesn't mean a hoot.  The commitment professed privately between them is what "marries" them.  My partner and I have been married for 10 years by that definition.  That doesn't do a @#$% bit of good in the eyes of the law. 

    This list is from the Human Rights Campaign website.

    Currently in the United States, same-sex couples in long-term, committed relationships pay higher taxes and are denied basic protections and rights granted to married couples. Among them:

    • Hospital visitation. Married couples have the automatic right to visit each other in the hospital and make medical decisions. Same-sex couples can be denied the right to visit a sick or injured loved one in the hospital.
    • Social Security benefits. Married people receive Social Security payments upon the death of a spouse. Despite paying payroll taxes, gay and *** workers receive no Social Security survivor benefits – resulting in an average annual income loss of $5,528 upon the death of a partner.
    • Health insurance. Many public and private employers provide medical coverage to the spouses of their employees, but most employers do not provide coverage to the life partners of gay and *** employees. Gay employees who do receive health coverage for their partners must pay federal income taxes on the value of the insurance.
    • Estate taxes. A married person automatically inherits all the property of his or her deceased spouse without paying estate taxes. A gay or *** taxpayer is forced to pay estate taxes on property inherited from a deceased partner.
    • Retirement savings. While a married person can roll a deceased spouse’s 401(k) funds into an IRA without paying taxes, a gay or *** American who inherits a 401(k) can end up paying up to 70 percent of it in taxes and penalties.
    • Family leave. Married workers are legally entitled to unpaid leave from their jobs to care for an ill spouse. Gay and *** workers are not entitled to family leave to care for their partners.
    • Immigration rights. Bi-national families are commonly broken up or forced to leave the country to stay together. The reason: U.S. immigration law does not permit American citizens to petition for their same-sex partners to immigrate.
    • Nursing homes. Married couples have a legal right to live together in nursing homes. Because they are not legal spouses, elderly gay or *** couples do not have the right to spend their last days living together in nursing homes.
    • Home protection. Laws protect married seniors from being forced to sell their homes to pay high nursing home bills; gay and *** seniors have no such protection.
    • Pensions. After the death of a worker, most pension plans pay survivor benefits only to a legal spouse of the participant. Gay and *** partners are excluded from such pension benefits.

    Why aren’t civil unions enough?
    Comparing marriage to civil unions is a bit like comparing diamonds to rhinestones. One is, quite simply, the real deal; the other is not. Consider:

    Couples eligible to marry may have their marriage performed in any state and have it recognized in every other state in the nation and every country in the world.

    Couples who are joined in a civil union in Vermont (or other state recognizing civil unions or domestic partnerships) have no guarantee that its protections will even travel with them to neighboring New York – let alone Texas or any other state.

    Moreover, even couples who have a civil union and remain in Vermont receive only second-class protections in comparison to their married friends and neighbors. While they receive state-level protections, they do not receive any of the more than 1,000 federal benefits and protections of marriage.

    In short, civil unions are not separate but equal – they are separate and unequal. And our society has tried separate before. It just doesn’t work.

    Marriage
    • State grants marriage licenses to couples.
    • Couples receive legal protections and rights under state and federal law.
    • Couples are recognized as being married by the federal government and all state governments.
    • Religious institutions are not required to recognize marriages or perform marriage ceremonies.

    Civil Unions

    • State would grant civil union licenses to couples
    • Couples receive legal protections and rights under state law only.
    • Civil unions are not recognized by other states or federal government.
    • Religious institutions are not required to recognize civil unions or perform civil union ceremonies

    I am not here to bash anyones personal beliefs.  I do want to be treated equally.  Not special, not extra.........just the same.  You don't have to like it.  You don't have to participate.  Churches won't be forced into anything.  Schools won't be forced into anything.

    The constitution was amended in 1870 to prevent rights being denied on the basis of race.  It was ameneded again in 1920 to prevent denial of voting on the basis of gender.  No where does it stipulate that marriage is allowable between men and women only.  Don't you think it's time we amend it again to prevent denial of partnership rights on the basis of sexual orientation?

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    jenn52
    Sorry, I guess I am just old fashioned but I still believe a penis was designed for a vagina. It's the only way to naturally conceive children. I believe men and women complement each other for a relationship in a different way that a woman/woman or man/man do. I believe children thrive best with a mother and a father. I think the way God designed it was the right way. Let's also not forget that every other civilization that has allowed immorality and corruption to run rampant has met demise.

     

    So, if the purpose for marriage is to provide a means of bringing children into the world.......what about the couples who are unable to get pregnant ?  What about the couples who simply don't want to have children?  What about the widows and widowers who want to get married late in life?

    Again, I am not arguing about personal beliefs.  We all have every right to lead our lives by the morals and ethics we are comfortable with.  I am interested in the legal aspect. 

    Why is it acceptable for this country to treat my relationship differently than yours?