Help me understand.............

Liesje

If you want to see what hate people are actually spewing and how I respond, read my family blog (I am Lies).
http://blog.dutchbingo.net/index.php?itemid=236#nucleus_cf

I just read this thread......... wow!   I have family members who probably would fit right in with Brian.  I prefer to have nothing to do with them.  They give me a headache in my eye.

I am very impressed with your ability to intelligently and clearly get your point across.  I feel lacking in that department.   The last post by your DH made me chuckle

PurplePets22

Liesje

If you want to see what hate people are actually spewing and how I respond, read my family blog (I am Lies).
http://blog.dutchbingo.net/index.php?itemid=236#nucleus_cf

 

 

I just read this thread......... wow!   I have family members who probably would fit right in with Brian.  I prefer to have nothing to do with them.  They give me a headache in my eye.

I am very impressed with your ability to intelligently and clearly get your point across.  I feel lacking in that department.   The last post by your DH made me chuckle

I need to post and say "I own this blog, bitches!  The last word is mine!"

If you go to the post below that, you can see where he posted some ridiculous article, which I eventually replaced with random photos of my husband's butt.

glenmar

Just for the record, MY personal problem with the word marriage yes, IS not necessarily religious in nature, but rather spiritual.  I am not saying that I object on the grounds of anything in religion or in the Bible, but rather that to me, civil commitment is the STATE recognizing a union, while marriage, to me, is a very spiritual thing.

Thanks for sharing.  And please don't feel bashed for expressing this thought.  The American language is such a fluid thing.  Every year Webster Dictionary puts a ton of new words into the new issue.  Things that are really just slang become official parts of our language.

To me, the word wedding refers to the ceremony (in a church or otherwise), marriage refers to the legal relationship between two people that is universally understood and accepted across boundaries, and civil union refers to very limited recognition given by a few small pockets of the country to the relationship specifically between same sex couples.

That said, Massachusetts doesn't really have gay marriage.  I know they call it that, but because that status is not transferable to other states...it's not the same to me.   Canada does have gay marriage because the entire country is covered.  But people married in Canada are not married in the US.

I have faith that someday this too will change.
 

glenmar

Just for the record, MY personal problem with the word marriage yes, IS not necessarily religious in nature, but rather spiritual.  I am not saying that I object on the grounds of anything in religion or in the Bible, but rather that to me, civil commitment is the STATE recognizing a union, while marriage, to me, is a very spiritual thing.

I on the other hand voted against that bill.  Not only do I think gays should be able to have the same rights, but I don't see why should semantics get in the way and them not being able to call their union marriage like all the other miserable  married people.

It seems strange to me to be living in a time where this is contested.  Would have hoped are society would be a bit more grown up and accepting at this time.

Krissim Klaw

It seems strange to me to be living in a time where this is contested.  Would have hoped are society would be a bit more grown up and accepting at this time.

You are an optimist. Evidently, people can't handle more than one earth-shattering change at a time. You know the stars realigned when Obama was elected. They would plain fall out of the sky if people could use the word gay marriage in the same breath, or even accept the legal concept. And they cannot ever, possibly, ever be wrong. Now, that's a problem with many folks, more than the gay word. That they could be wrong about something. That just can't be.

So, for others, we start with easier, evidently more acceptable concepts and work on the harder ones. Repeat after me: Black president. See, that wasn't so hard. Do it again, it just rolls off the tongue. Black president. Now, gay marriage. Just look at it as two words strung together. Next week, we'll work on bisexual (I know it's not fair but I'm not the creator who created hermaphrodites or people that are drawn to both genders.) We will eventually work up to a whole phrase, like respecting others though they are different from ourselves or go to a different denomination of church. We'll probably have to sneak up on that with a shorter phrase like xenophobia bad, xenophobia bad.

To borrow Obama's slogan, yes we can. I was called a racist because I had a problem with Obama's middle name. Even better, I was a sexist because I was supporting Palin. Obama's campaign inferred that I was a bitter american clinging to my religion and guns. I drew the harshest criticism for sharing a legitimate problem with one ad. That caused a person of great importance to question my honor and integrity. If I can drop these things and let them go, you (in general) can adjust to the concept of gay marriage. More importantly, the world will have to adjust. Wishing a person away doesn't actually make them disappear. Once opened, you cannot close Pandora's Box. But the last thing out of the box was Hope Eternal,. without which, Man has nothing.

 Note: I have not read all of these posts and probably won't read the ones that follow. I'm just stating my opinion.

I believe in the separation of Church and State. It's written in to our constitution. It *really* irks me that on one hand, people back the right to free speach so literally, yet when it comes to church and state, they ignore it.

I was very surprised and dissappointed at the outcome of that proposal. It just says that we have a long way to go as a country yet. 

ron2

Krissim Klaw

It seems strange to me to be living in a time where this is contested.  Would have hoped are society would be a bit more grown up and accepting at this time.

You are an optimist. Evidently, people can't handle more than one earth-shattering change at a time.

 

But what's so earth-shattering about equal rights?  People have been gay since the beginning of time.  Have they been living under rocks and never noticed?
 

I'm feeling a bit bashed for being open and honest.

If anyone read my FIRST post, I did say that I absolutely believe that ALL people have the right to the benefit of civil union.

The question posed was "help me understand" and I foolishly tried to answer from my perspective.  The word "marriage" bugs me.  Sorry.  It might be irrational, it might be what an "old fart" would say, but at least it's honest.

The gal who DID vote for the ban because of her religious convictions also got a pretty good bashing and that's not real fair either.  She believes what she believes and right or wrong, or whether I agree with her or not, she has the right to vote her beliefs and was brave enough to share those beliefs and then get bashed.

Thats unfair at any time, but particularly in the context of this thread where the OP simply has asked us to help her to understand why people are opposed to gay marriage.  There are a lot of different reasons and as I understood her question, it was basically the WHY of it...why do people feel as they feel.  Bashing someone for what they feel or belive is hitting below the belt.

The piece of paper that the state gave me doesn't mean much to me.  The commitment that my DH and I made to one another is to me, what marriage is about.  And, as I said, I know that it's irrational of me to get hung up on the word, I know that it isn't fair of me to think that word should be reserved for what I think it means.  But, bottom line, the word is my hang up.

And, I answered honestly to try to help Purplepets understand.  I'm not opposed to same gender civil unions.  The word bugs me.  That's all.  And I can look at myself in the mirror knowing that I have tried to help her understand why some folks have a general objection, or a very specific one to her situation.

Sorry that offends so many.  It seems not to offend the OP

glenmar

The piece of paper that the state gave me doesn't mean much to me. 

But, I wonder if you'd feel differently if it hadn't been so simple for you to get?  I think you've articulated your position well and I certainly don't want to bash you for it, but it strikes me that maybe people like you and I (b/c I would also say that my marriage license is just a piece of paper) perhaps take that for granted.  When we got our license, DH went down and did it.  I was struck by how simple it was.  I never even signed anything, DH could have took my IDs out of my purse and done it without my consent, lol.

glenda, i really didnt see anyone bashing you! just discussing... or maybe i am just reading my own sentiments into other people's posts... i dont know.

as for me, i have to admit i am a bit weirded out by the concept of homosexuality myself. one of my best friends is bisexual, and that weirds me out as well. i have told her openly, and she is ok with that (although she does do the occasional joke on me, which i dont mind AT ALL!). i have nothing against gays or bisexuals (i hope that is politically correct...) it's just the concept is hard to grasp for me. but then again, a person's sexual orientation has nothing to do with who they are to me as a person.

as for gay marriage: again, it is weird to me. but i dont see why not! no reason my feelings should prohibit someone else's happiness, or even infringe on their rights.

Moderator note...

ALL viewpoints are to be respected on this thread. This thread was not intended by the OP to my understanding to be a "convincing session" where viewpoints are to be argued and changes to them attempted....simply a wish to HEAR those viewpoints.

Let's please start a new thread if we want to justify or argue about those viewpoints. This thread was really intended to be more of a sharing thread...and less a debate one.

Thanks to ALL posting for remaining civil and on topic.

Liesje

ron2

Krissim Klaw

It seems strange to me to be living in a time where this is contested.  Would have hoped are society would be a bit more grown up and accepting at this time.

You are an optimist. Evidently, people can't handle more than one earth-shattering change at a time.

 

 

But what's so earth-shattering about equal rights?  People have been gay since the beginning of time.  Have they been living under rocks and never noticed?
 

And to anyone who thinks I am bashing them or their beliefs, I still love and respect my mom despite our different opinions.  Countrary to popular belief it is possible to debate without hating your oponent.

Rwbeagles- If this is not intended to be a debate thread you probably should tell the original poster to edit the first post and take out the line, I want this thread to be a rational debate.  Of course debating is at its core simply sharing your opinions.  If you happen to sway someone or cause a lightbulb moment, that is merely a plus.

Perhaps you are right Lies.  Anything that we don't have to fight for, isn't of much real value often.  I think what I was trying to say is that my MARRIAGE basically has nothing to do with the state so that little piece of paper doesn't have much relevance in that marriage.  But, if I couldn't have it, it might matter to me.

Thank you Gina.  I have long admitted to being an old fart and a bit on the conservative side.  While I really try to be open minded about a lot of things that make me less than comfy/cozy, I won't apologize for what I feel or think.  And trying to convince me that I'm wrong, basically invalidating my feelings, isn't likely to make me "tow the line" but rather to dig in my heels and become bullheaded about it.  Guess that's the aging hippie in me......

PurplePets22

will tell you all right now...  I am gay.  While I don't live in California, the passage of this proposition is frustrating and confusing.  I just don't understand why my partner and I are denied the same rights and protections as the straight couples ?????????

I have not read all of the previous posts so if I am repeating something said by dozens before, sorry.  I think the reason  is fear.  Fear of what they don't understand.  Fear of what they think threatens their beliefs.  Fear is the greatest barrier to change. If we can overcome our fears and start to realize that what we feared was actually the "idea" and that the thing or group that we feared is not so scary after all.  My parents and my Mom in particular grew up in a very rural area of Texas and she was not exposed to much diversity until she married and moved to Houston.  She was scared of everything and everyone and sometimes her fear turned into hatred.  It took a lifetime for her to see that her fears were based on nothing but her imagination. I too am of an age group that was brought up to believe that marraige was between a man and a woman.  I feel that it is important to not restrict people to narrow definitions of gender (since that can be changed) but to acknowledge that we are all entitled to the exact same rights and protections regardless of our sexual orientation. I would be furious if a law were passed that said I can't receive health insurance under my DH's insurance because of something that I have no control over!  Going off to the aging hippie corner............Hi Glenda.

I think one of the problems people are having with this issue is that there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, and the overturn of the state Supreme Courts decision is definitely based on religious beliefs. There is absolutely nothing in the world wrong with  being opposed to gay marriage, but I think it should stop there.  If you're opposed - fine.  You don't have to do it, like it or associate with people who do. Once you start allowing the religious beliefs of one group to impose on the lives of others, you're going down a very slippery slope. There are people out there who think smoking/drinking are sins, who think living with someone before marriage is a sin, who would quite happily take my favorite TV shows off the air. It just scares me to think of these people having that kind of power. Remember, if it had gone to a " vote of the people" segregation would still be the order of the day and women would still be waiting for the right to walk into a voting booth.

Joyce