Breeder contracts

Short answer. In a court of law, most breeder contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

samshine

Short answer. In a court of law, most breeder contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

LOL, that is what I had figured all along.  I think it could be said for a fair number of "contracts" in general...

Liesje

First off, I'm not bringing this up because I have a problem with contracts in general or contracts between my breeder and myself, this is just something that was on my mind today.  In college I took contract law b/c I was interested in it but never pursued it.  So I know some of these cases are not black and white and take a lot of analysis.

First and "bottom line" answer is it completely depends on the state and how well written the contract is.  And THAT depends on the breeder and how much they are willing to spend on attorney fees (and trust me -- the more lecherous ones are often the more 'well protected' ones). 

They come from different standpoints -- and again the personality and ethics of the breeder come into play here because are they so completely convinced they are "on the dog's side" that they are willing to literally barge in, and bulldoze their way thru and snatch the dog "as their right" (picture crying children or lots of screaming or even letting the dog out of your yard) Or are they going to go completely within the laws of the state/locale and go thru all the various ramifications of whatever your area requires as far as repo'ing property (much like reposessing a car -- we're talking "possessions" here -- not usually going to be a concern that this is a living entity) -- again that's totally going to be dependant upon local law and how the contract is written.

OR does the breeder simply want to be able to have basis to sue -- and some breeders are lawsuit happy -- mostly frivolous, incendiary suits designed to slander within the law and cost the owner TONS and BOODLES of money just to fight suits, take off work, etc. and essentially bully people into standing down and either paying "damages" or relinquishing the dog.

Liesje

What can the breeder do?  If the contract states consequences of not abiding by the terms, does that change anything?  For example, say in the same situation the "contract" went on to say that failure to neuter the dog within 4 months would result in the dog being re-claimed by the breeder.  Can they really dog that?

Sure they can DO anything they want essentially -- and this is where some people wind up in these long-drawn-out-never-ending-costly suits that become he said/she said things.  They may bulldoze their way in and snatch the dog (let's wait until the wife is home alone or the kids are being watched by a sitter) or they may suffer thru endless legal process to get a Writ of Possession (and if they drag the owner thru enough endless court appearances where someone has to take off tons of time from work -- most folks will just give up rather than lose their job for excessive absence and bad publicity).

But I'm going to go out on a limb and say yeah, a lot of this is threatening jargon, but the vast majority of it may simply result in lawsuits based on the failure to abide by the contract and whatever "damages" (monetary damages) they can trump up.  Most of those damages are going to be things like lost work and vet bills, etc. 

Essentially people can "do" anything they darned well please, and then someone else can try to sue them for it.  How those things *should* go and how they DO go may be 180 degrees apart.

A few weeks ago someone posted a news blurb about this guy in Tampa, FL who "got thrown in jail" because he didn't re-sod his lawn and keep it nice.  I've actually talked in passing to several attorneys about this since just to see what they'd say.  ON the outside it SOUNDS LUDICROUS that anyone may actually have been thrown in jail for such a silly thing.

BUT the bottom line is, some attorney for the association was dogged enough to keep on going to get the judge to sanction this guy one more time (after a zillion times) and the judge finally got tired of the guy not showing up in court and the JUDGE put him in jail.  It never was the Association - it was an offended judge.

Same thing but different -- in that crazy Senator Stevens thing in Alaska -- one of the JURORS claimed she couldn't come in because her father had died and she took off DAYS for "his funeral".  Eventually they replaced her with an alternate just to get the case back in the courtroom.

THEN they discovered (somehow someone ratted or she admitted it or something) -- she didn't lose her father at all.  She went to a HORSE race!!  She dissed court to go to a race because she had non-refundable plane tickets.

How dumb can you get?  The court coulda/shoulda put her butt in jail for that.  It's called "contempt of court".  And lo and behold that judge just plain let her off!!

Difference in judges.  Difference in courts (county vs. federal and the federal judge had WAY more leeway to do her serious damage). 

So how enforceable?  That's something you'd have to evaluate on a case by case basis with the particular, individual contract and an attorney who knows local/state contract law there.  Frankly, you can cause someone just as much damage as YOU are willing to cause and create.  Does that make sense?  IN other words, it likely costs $250 or more just to file something in your county "small claims court" (here in the States) and that's JUST to hand the paper to the clerk.  Someone either has to do a ton of research online to get the forms TO file, or pay an attorney to draw up a suit ($250 or so per hour -- not just the suit but the summons, court's cover, Lis Pendens, etc.)

In short -- suing someone costs money.  Lots of it typically.  so the route most people might take would be to go and bulldoze their way in to GET the dog back and then let YOU sue them to get it back sort of counting on the fact that "they had a contract" to intimidate YOU enough to not sue them (counting on your love of the dog or their contention that they can do better by it and let the judge sort it out).  In other words, just because THEY have a contract you signed doesn't mean *they* will be the ones to sue you to accomplish that thing.  They'll probably take whatever steps they assume the contract gives them the right TO take and let you be the one to spend the money to sue.   

I'd never walk forward into an undertaking *assuming* a contract was unenforceable because typically if someone is serious enough to require a contract then somewhere they are planning on making you miserable enough to make it stick.  Most breeders, etc. aren't going to go to the $$ spent of hiring an attorney to sue you to get the dog.  Probably not in the 'real world'. 

But I have known lots of good breeders AND good shelters/rescues who have been sued and lives ruined over it.  And I've known some nasty ones tho protect their nastiness by nastier contracts that make it too costly for anyone to fight them (and they usually have some attorney on retainer to back their play).

Most folks assume, as you rightly said, the because there is a contract no one is going to break it.  And most of the contracts I've seen regarding dog stuff are ludicrous at best.  The better ones are usually the unscrupulous idiot who wants to protect his back.  Isn't THAT a scarey thot?

Most of all these situations described could be avoided if you do like Lies did and buy from a breeder you know well and have done your research on before you are antsy for a puppy.  I think most of the conflict comes when people agree too quickly because they want that pup so bad and then they find out that the breeder really is serious about enforcing the terms of the contract or that the breeder is a nut case.  Callie I did know a Lab breeder who did steal a dog from a persons yard because they refused to buy the dog food she recommended.  This woman was seriously unbalanced but on first meeting her you would not know how really strange she was.  She would show up at new puppy homes in the middle of the night to check on the puppy!  Most of the Lab people knew of her and she mainly got the new and gullible buyers.  They could have avoided dealing with this if they had just done a little more looking and asking other Lab people.

Oh absolutely -- I know specific instances of each of those things.  It isn't just that people can "do" what is within the law -- they can DO anything they darned well please -- and sometimes they get away with it and sometimes they don't.

While a contract is a contract and many here (and rightly so) value contracted purebreeds, I agree with others that you really need to know the breeder. And read the fine print as some of them will tell you what you must feed, when you must neuter or spay, and of course, some implied right to reclaim the dog if they so choose. Because of Texas law regarding protection of property, life, and assets, if you go walking into someone's yard unannounced to "take" something, it might be the last thing you do. 20 something years ago, there was a local case of a guy who got behind on his car payments. A repo guy came to take the car. The owner shot and killed him. The owner was no-billed because in Texas, you can use force up to and including deadly force in defense of life, property, and assets. Even if he was behind in his payments.

So, yeah, some of these breeders might reclaim the dog on shear bravado but we could put the burden on them. That is, retain possession and make them prove we have violated the contract. And challenge the enforcability or legality of said contract.

I suppose it's caveat emptor, even when buying from a contracted breeder. Then again, when you sign a contract, you are agreeing to the terms therein. If you don't agree or foresee a future situation that might bring you into violation of the contract, don't sign it.

OTOH, if you have purchased a dog and signed a contract which included spay/neuter and you don't, that most likely means you intend to breed, which would be a violation of contract and possibly a violation of ethics. The breeder may have thought your pup was not right for breeding and you decide later that he/she is which brings up the question of breeding a questionable dog. If you bought the dog to show, that would have been part of the original understanding, in which case, the dog would remain intact until finished. And then, if not bred, should be neutered.

If the breeder wants the dog back just because they now think he/she is breed-worthy, that's their problem. And I don't think they have to right to just seize the dog back. And you could make it a moot point by having the dog neutered, thereby ending their ability to proceed with the breeding program. You could sever ties with such a breeder and get a proximity C.O. to keep them away from your place, upon punishment of incarceration and contempt of court.

If, however, you wish to breed the dog against the breeder's wishes or breeding program, that may be an implied violation of understanding the desire of the contract to maintain a breeding program.

ron2

While a contract is a contract and many here (and rightly so) value contracted purebreeds, I agree with others that you really need to know the breeder. And read the fine print as some of them will tell you what you must feed, when you must neuter or spay, and of course, some implied right to reclaim the dog if they so choose. Because of Texas law regarding protection of property, life, and assets, if you go walking into someone's yard unannounced to "take" something, it might be the last thing you do. 20 something years ago, there was a local case of a guy who got behind on his car payments. A repo guy came to take the car. The owner shot and killed him. The owner was no-billed because in Texas, you can use force up to and including deadly force in defense of life, property, and assets. Even if he was behind in his payments.

So, yeah, some of these breeders might reclaim the dog on shear bravado but we could put the burden on them. That is, retain possession and make them prove we have violated the contract. And challenge the enforcability or legality of said contract.

I suppose it's caveat emptor, even when buying from a contracted breeder. Then again, when you sign a contract, you are agreeing to the terms therein. If you don't agree or foresee a future situation that might bring you into violation of the contract, don't sign it.

OTOH, if you have purchased a dog and signed a contract which included spay/neuter and you don't, that most likely means you intend to breed, which would be a violation of contract and possibly a violation of ethics. The breeder may have thought your pup was not right for breeding and you decide later that he/she is which brings up the question of breeding a questionable dog. If you bought the dog to show, that would have been part of the original understanding, in which case, the dog would remain intact until finished. And then, if not bred, should be neutered.

If the breeder wants the dog back just because they now think he/she is breed-worthy, that's their problem. And I don't think they have to right to just seize the dog back. And you could make it a moot point by having the dog neutered, thereby ending their ability to proceed with the breeding program. You could sever ties with such a breeder and get a proximity C.O. to keep them away from your place, upon punishment of incarceration and contempt of court.

If, however, you wish to breed the dog against the breeder's wishes or breeding program, that may be an implied violation of understanding the desire of the contract to maintain a breeding program.

I agree with Ron.  A contract is a contract if its verbal or written.  If there is something silly in it like, what food you feed then a judge would simply handle it.  But with spay and neuter I believe it would be enforced.  Either do it, or give the dog back. 

ron2

So, yeah, some of these breeders might reclaim the dog on shear bravado but we could put the burden on them.

But what I'm really getting at is HOW.  How does it actually play out in a court of law? The answer I am getting here and other places (where this issue came up in reality) is that sure a breeder could take it to court but it would be an expensive process for them and just b/c the buyer signed a contract does not mean that it will be enforceable.  I'm not really interested in ethics or why a breeder or buyer would want to go back on the contract or whether they should have signed it in the first place.

The only thing the court has to decide is if the contract was agreed upon by both parties and if either party breeched that contract and what that breech is.  Of course the contents of the contract can't break any laws.  The contract is a legal binding document, it does not need a judges approval at the making, the courts would just bring it to justice.  If the breeder wanted to take someone to court and pay the expense and can prove that the contract between them was not withheld the courts would order the dog returned or the items me, if that was the terms of the contract.

Contracts do not need to be drawn up by anyone legal, the only reason you want legal representation to be sure you didn't leave any loopholes and it would hold up in court.

  Gosh I wish I had seen this earlier. I am really exhausted right now.....as briefly as I can here is what our atty drew up (for a small fortune .)the theory was obtained from another close friend who was a Washington DC big wig.  She has been known to sue an errant owner or co owner and win every time....                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Most contracts carry very little weight, I have a really tough contract. Yours depends on several things.Not the least of which may be did an attny draw up the contract? Does the contract allow for damages to the breeder should you breech it? Did it allow for an extention in the time table to have a proceadure done based off of a written request to delay and a written assertion that you are not breeding the animal and will be responsible for both damages and the puppies should a breeding happen. In your contract \did  Did you have to initial next to what I call the deal breakers?  I am sorry my brain is almost on auto pilot tonight. In my contracts  I stipulate an age range for Spay / Nueter , Not before the first heat for a girl ( and asap after , or before 12 months for a male, and not after 18 months on a male. This is clearly explained in the contract and the new owner's initials show they have clearly discussed and specifically agreed on the ages and reasons.  In my contract there is also a clause that specifies damages should you fail to follow the agreement as laid out in the contract ( 5000.00 ) . I obligate myself to taking the dog back for life and for any reason,the contracts specifies when and if a refund, full or partial may be expected and who is responsible for the court costs and any legal fees, who is responsible for the transportation cost to return the dog to me. It spells out the damages that may be charged should the owner place the dog rather than return it. It is rigid in the language about where the case will be heard and who has to travel should it go to court. ie I , living in Southern Alabama  sell you a dog and you live in California. You are required by contract to return the dog to me, at your expense. You are also required to answer or to address any legal issue in my home town and state.  This is important since it is the reason most breeders fail to enforce their contracts. It would become a financial nightmare if the breeder had to travel and fight for the dog in your state. Getting an atty to travel and file in another state can mean hiring additional attys to practice in your juristiction. The best most contracts without these same type of items and stipulations can offer is a small claims court settlement or in an civil suit an accomodating judge  issuing an order in support of your position.  Keep in mind however small claims court can offer damages from 1500.00 to I believe it is 7500.00+/-  depending on the location that the suit is filed.  The size of a civil settlement will be determined by judge influenced by  the initialed clauses and the language which the judge would use to establish the extent of the meeting of the minds in the contract. ie when talking about the required S/N of a dog the contract spells out the liquid damages that are agreed on at time of purchase , so should you fail to alter the dog as agreed upon  and then the dog is bred , intentionally  or unintentionally,  the judge is aware that by breeding ( or allowing the dog to be bred) you  have injured the reputation of my kennel and myself as a breeder

Chances are excellent you might be able to salvage the relationship with your breeder by assuring them in writting that as your vet agrees with you on the delay to S/N to allow the dog in question to fully develope), You will take extrodinary care to avoid any breeding. That you understand and respect their desire to have the dog altered and will provide a S/N certificate as soon as the dog has had a chance to mature. Few breeders want to take a dog out of an otherwise successful placement.

Keep all of us posted , it will be interesting to find follow what happens. Best of Luck!!

yawn and off to bed for me!! Bonita of Bwana

Bonita, any chance I can get a copy of that contract via PM or something? I'm trying to collect as many as I can to show to my lawyer in preparation for having her draw one up for me. :P 

Liesje

ron2

So, yeah, some of these breeders might reclaim the dog on shear bravado but we could put the burden on them.

 

But what I'm really getting at is HOW.  How does it actually play out in a court of law? The answer I am getting here and other places (where this issue came up in reality) is that sure a breeder could take it to court but it would be an expensive process for them and just b/c the buyer signed a contract does not mean that it will be enforceable.  I'm not really interested in ethics or why a breeder or buyer would want to go back on the contract or whether they should have signed it in the first place.

Well, I just have a lot of living because I'm an old guy whereas you have actually studied contract law in one of your courses. You are likely to know more than I would. I could hazard guesses based on "Judging Amy" and "Perry Mason", which is fiction, but often based on real cases and some legal theory given by technical advisors. Short answer, I agree, the burden of enforcing the contract is on the breeder. Which is why some breeders go the extra mile to have contracts reviewed and tweaked and tightened by an attorney, specifically one who is specialized in contract and corporate law. How many breeders can afford to let go a couple of grand ($1,000 immediate retainer, $250 to $400/hr billable, which includes phone calls)? Retainer + 3 hours of case work is over two grand, not including court costs. And the reason the lawyer charges so much is that out of that money he pays is overhead (office space, utilities) employee costs (salary, benefits, office supplies) not to mention paying himself and he's not about to go hungry.

If a hypothetical you decides to break a hypothetical contract, there's a possibility that the breeder won't have the cash free to pursue a lawsuit by way of a lawyer. However, if the value of the pup is below a certain amount, they could certainly do it in small claims court. Not answering that suit can result in a default judgement awarded to the plaintiff (breeder) who did show up. This does allow them to show up and reclaim the dog and use police force if necessary. Failure to comply with the judgement would be contempt of court which means you not only lose the dog but you could go to jail for contempt.

calliecritturs

Most folks assume, as you rightly said, the because there is a contract no one is going to break it.  And most of the contracts I've seen regarding dog stuff are ludicrous at best.  The better ones are usually the unscrupulous idiot who wants to protect his back.  Isn't THAT a scarey thot?

Callie while normally you and I are on the same page, this is one where we will have to agree to disagree.  We did a ton of leg work prior to ever having our second litter. The first litter was small, only 3 pups and 2 were spoken for before the ever hit the ground.  Then we planned litter 2 and I began to look into how to improve the whys and hows for having that litter. The waiting list in place and the improvement in our own dogs we then began to investigate contracts.  The likelihood of selling a puppy to someone we had not known forever or who did not live close by "just in case..." became really clear....and scary!  We , make that Me, did our homework even harder  from that point on. There is nothing as scary as waking up at 2 am and thinking OMG what if they chain it outside?? Or they give it away to some moron because they have a kid with allergies..

Do I want to take back an adolescent pup who has not been properly trained??  uuuh NO. what I want is a piece of paper that will make any normal adult really think before they sign it. A statement that clearly lets them know I have no qualms about reigning havoc and chaos on their lives if they harm my puppy and do not cheirsh it in the manner it was intended.   That the best they can hope for is giving the puppy back with damages if they are dumb enough to not just own up and say , Hey it is not working out what can we do??   In that case I will go out of my way to make it easier for them. I will drive to meet them I will board and train I will take pup/dog back age not an issue reason not important....

The one time I did not require a contract be signed was when my husband decided to gift his daughter and her husband with a pup after they had lost a young male to Fort Dodge vaccines.  While not on board 100% I was not about to start WWIII ,  years later you can picture my face when I found out after driving from Alabama to California and brought gifts for kids and dogs that the dogs were gone... they had become inconvienant and the SD and SIL had lied to Rescue telling them they had lost the papers and no longer remembered the name of the breeder....  some hemming an hawing and she said I thought I told Dad, he looked blank and changed the subject.  I did not speak to them again for a couple of years beyond what courtesy absolutely demanded.  The only puppy I have ever lost track of while knowing where the family was.  I spent hundreds trying to track him down, not to take him away from a new home but to offer them the same guarantees that all of our pups have depended on.  I have never found him.... the only other pup in nearly 30 years I have lost track of was placed with a relative of good friends, less than 20 minutes from our home !!  Placed with the understanding we would help to show it, they encountered marital problems over the holidays, she took the dog and returned home to family refusing all attemtps to see if she was okay and needed any help with the pup.

A decent breeder needs a strong contract for leverage if nothing else. I have paid for the spay of a dog whena family fell on hard times because of a child's medical issues, the contract was kept , the dog and breed spared unplanned litters and we remained good friends. I have also taken back dogs based off of that contract , from both wealthy and poor families that were not living up to what had been promised for the dog. The first had staff taking care of the dog and he was unhappy the second had such money problems they were not feeding him enough to be healthy. The wealthy family paid re homing fees, the poor family was giventhe the $400.00 received when I placed him even though I had spent over $800.00 in rehabbing him to get him back in good health.

Without a strong contract you are powerless should you find out that seemingly perfect home had fatal flaws. With a contract you do have the ability to , yes "repo" the dog or at the very least make a deal to allow the dog to be returned to you with less fuss. Should a family claim to love a dog and not want to give it up then you have an opening to discussion on how to improve the dog's life and circumstances. It is entirely up to each breeder to decide hoe involved they are going to be in the life of each puppy brought into the world.  A breeder who has multiple litters a year may not have the commitment to each puppy.  Some think as they have carefully bred the litter and expended a certain amount of energy towards placements this is the most that can be expected of them. Others stay close and involved for life.  Some depends on the personality of the owners and some on the breeders.... and sometimes it comes down to the contract.  If it is a simple health guarantee that says a lot imo, it tells me you delivered a body in good shape at the completion of the sale.  More complex and I "hear" commitment from the breeder for the dog's life and happiness.  Nothing pleases us more than to get a call saying we are traveling, or on our way to DisneyWorld , or I have a problem ...can YOU help?  absolutely, we have cared for dogs while owners vacationed, when they were at a training impass, when there were family health issues or they were moving and things were in flux... we do it for a whopping $4.00 a day they rejoin th epack, get checked by our vet, played with by our kids and have a journal written with photos as a memory book for the family.  We deliver more than a body when that check clears , we have delivered a promise and it is clearly outlined in our contract.

So the comments about litigeous breeders hoping to make money from damages etc. while not inaccurate was not entirely fair either.  Breeders come in different grades  just like diamonds.  The effort and guarantees reflect this pretty plainly. Going on line to the so called internet breeders can show you the CYA contracts. Even these have some merit.  It comes down to being an educated consumer.  I have not had a chance to read everyone's comments as I have been off line for a couple of days, but this I thought was important to point out.  

As for the type of dog food defense , Most of us have this clause in our guarantee, it is to prohibit an owner taking a dog raised on a decent quality dog food and slapping it on Old Roy then coming after you because that pup's coat or bone structure is inferior to the others in the litter.  And yes I have seen that happen, a lovely pup from an excellent breeding who was sold with out a contract, when the owner began bad mouthing them every show they went to , they had to deal with it, How was it the breeder's fault that the dog was taken off of a quality dog food, placed on the cheapest grade of Diamond and then road worked from 5 months old on to force muscle, his coat was trashed , his conformation more Rottie than Rhodie ??? The rest of that litter was spectacular.  He wanted a trade , for the pup they had kept !!  THATwas an ugly situation. 

I also have a No Fort Dodge clause.  Doing research will show why this is a valid concern for breeders. My dogs are placed as house dogs, so sticking them in a kennel or chaining them to a tree??? Hmmmm let's talk. I have stipulations about training,  Puppy kindergarten, basic training are a MUST.  Then we assure you that we are there to help, do you want to show? Do you want to play in Agility? Therapy?  Let us know, we offer our home, rv and help in eveyway possible , we love to have folks show up at our home or events, they can not ask too many questions, are welcomed to borrow equipment or just hang out. 

There is a huge difference in a contract backed puppy and breeder, trust me.

Bonita of Bwana

 him to good health again

I have to re down load it to my lap top. ( the silly thing crashed so I have to go through all of the back up files and find it , but sure I would be happy to share.)

The most important things are :

Clean and clear statements of "deal breakers" with intials of both yourself and buyer to show they have been gone over and understood.

A clear health guarantee.

A clear statement , also initialed about any lawsuit needing to be addressed in YOUR city and state. That you can bring a law suit and they must answer it in your court or face a default judgement.  This saves  you a fortune should you need to go to court. You will have the benefit of no travel and having your regular attny on board, while they will have to hire an attny out of state possibly  and travel expenses for both .

Damages must be stated. While none of us want to remove a dog from a loving home if there is something going on that would make you upset enough to think court, then you want to have damages stated up front and clearly  ...this allows leverage and the court a clear path to follow .

Bonita of Bwana