Can Toy dogs jump up 15" and thru 4" gate space??

Just for clarification, I am not letting my dogs take advantage of me. When, after 7 hours, my boy hikes his leg until he can hardly stand there any more b/c his bladder was busting to the seams, then he had to go pee.  And we barely make it to the first patch of grass....no walking around b/c he is very ready to go when I get home. And, if he doesn't go pee somewhat later in the evening, then, yep, he is waking me up in the middle of the night to go.  Otherwise, they sleep thru the night.  Good that your dogs can hold it, but mine can't, and he has had a bladder infection from holding it too long when I couldn't make it back sooner than 8 hours during the week.

So, apparantly dogs, like humans, have differing abilities to hold.  This is why the general blanket saying of 'letting your dogs be housebroken until you get home at night' bothers me.  Because some dogs can't...and some people will read this blanket statement and expect their dog to be able to do that as well and get mad at their dog if they can't hold it as long as the owner thinks they should.  Some people won't consider that their dogs might not be able to do what other dogs can do.  Glad it works out for you.

But, this means I can't work a full day and then do shopping.  I've got to drive all the way home. There is no one else to help.  And, I can't take a day trip on Saturdays or do anything more than 7 or so hours b/c of them needing to pee so bad. That's what I mean by needing more time for a life.  Being able to take in a play at a popular place that is 2 hours away is off the agenda. The drive time, play time, and dinner exceeds my dogs abilities to 'hold' it and I think it's unkind of me to ask them.   It's not that I am 'too busy', but that the current setup doesn't allow me the freedom to just take off for a Saturday or shop late one evening after work.  It's been this way for 5 years, and I need a change in this protocol.  I should have explained that better.  

I am glad that you guys answered, as well as everyone else.  Even if we disagree on something, it still can lead to a productive conversation where something is learned, or something new considered.  Thanks!

' I have got to have this fence. The dogs are all my responsibility, and for 5 years, my life has revolved around them. It is toooo hard to revolve my life around when the dogs have got to be let outside to go piddle. I need a life that doesn't revolve around when they've got to go pee.  I have already installed a doggie door, and they will have an inside bedroom to themselves, with the ability to go outside when they want.  My future sanity requires that they can go in and out as they need to, and free up my schedule some."

I don't understand, your dogs are mature adults and they can't hold it for 8 hrs? You have bigger dogs right? I have a corgi, who I'm sure has a smaller bladder than your two and if I take her out to potty before i go, for 8 hrs., she'll hold it no problem.  Also, your life  shouldn't revolve around their pee schedule. Tootsie goes out when I tell her, she does not dictate my life. JMO

"But, this means I can't work a full day and then do shopping.  I've got to drive all the way home. There is no one else to help.  And, I can't take a day trip on Saturdays or do anything more than 7 or so hours b/c of them needing to pee so bad. That's what I mean by needing more time for a life.  Being able to take in a play at a popular place that is 2 hours away is off the agenda. The drive time, play time, and dinner exceeds my dogs abilities to 'hold' it and I think it's unkind of me to ask them.   It's not that I am 'too busy', but that the current setup doesn't allow me the freedom to just take off for a Saturday or shop late one evening after work.  It's been this way for 5 years, and I need a change in this protocol.  I should have explained that better."

Now, knowing your reasons behind it all makes more sense. I do think adding a dog run onto the area where the dog door is will give you much more freedom with your time.

And again, I do wish you luck with this project. 

Umm... one of mine is mature, and I try, really hard, not to ask her to hold it for over 8 hours. She will NOT use a pee pee pad, so that means I either come home, or she's with me. We don't have the option of an outdoor run. If we did, I'd probably do it, for her. A little, safe room with a couple of bed options, a doggy door, and a topped run. She'd love it, and be so comfy.  When she does hold it for over 8 hours, she's obviously uncomfortable. 

Lyn, I think you're doing great, LOL. It *is* hard to imagine a small dog doing what they do. The dog I had before Emma was a GSD. The dog before that was a Golden mix. Neither of them would have considered going over or under the fence. Emma certainly will. The Crested puppy did it the first day she was here (at the time, she was 5 1/2 lbs, flying over a 4' fence!). Teenie, the Dachshund, slid THROUGH the chain link at the bottom. I have no idea how she did that, but I've watched her! That tiny space.... a 11 lb Doxie body. Whoa! Little dogs are houdinier, and I don't know why. They just CAN, like Callie says. It's definitely something to consider, for everybody who's looking into a little dog, and I hope that lurkers are reading this thread.

Then why not fence a smaller area -- maybe with a doggie door if yours aren't crated? 

Or how about arranging for a pet walker to come in on the days when YOU need to do something different.

Frankly, cheaper and likely more satisfactory than the fence.  The problem is, in a neighborhood as nice as yours must be to consider that type of fencing, a dog or dogs outside are gonna bark and all sorts of things.  It quickly becomes not an option -- particularly if you have to start making better arrangements when you need to fight inclement weather. 

I have the same circumstance -- altho mine IN A PINCH can go 10 hours.  Now -- NOT Tink ... not yet.  It will be a while before the body is developed enough to be able to do it -- so I'm doing a LOT of extra driving now.  And I have dr. appts. *after* work all the time -- so either i have to take time in the middle of the day to drive all the way home to let them out OR stop on my way.

It's taken a ton of schedule juggling -- but sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. 

But truly -- I think you'll be very disappointed in what a fence can do.  I have the perfect completely fenced back yard -- but all it takes is ONE neighbor to complain ONE time and code enforcement is all over you and as it is I'm one over the legal limit and they'd make me get rid of one. 

And my dogs DON"T bark -- but the guy who will complain will go right up TO the fence and stand there and glare at them.  So then it's easy for the cops to say "uninterrupted barking for 10 minutes" or whatever your incorporated area/village/town/city ordinance has as it's limit on barking.

 I have a friend who lived in an area much like what you describe - complete with the busy road on the other side of the fence.  One day her Norwich Terrier just plain wanted what was in that street TOO BAD and he was over the 5' fence in a hearbeat.

All she heard was the squealing tires and the impact and she's never forgiven herself for losing Ty to this day.

PS -- another thot for you (and I wish I knew if your dogs are crated or not?).

You can actually go to some pretty serious lengths **inside** to make a grassy area for the dogs to use INSIDE. 

Or - and I have done this with a couple of dogs.  I've taught them to go in the bathtub (sorry -- it's EASY to clean and you pick up the solids and flush them).  "If you can't hold it -- go here!" and I've literally trained them and it works fine. 

I truly understand -- but maybe we can help you think outside the box a bit.

Thank you Jennie..... I appreciate that! 

I am so sorry to hear about your friends terrier.  That is very difficult.    I am also sorry about your circumstances with limited dogs (and a very nasty neighbor, to boot!).  I remember you mentioning dog limits before and that suprised me.   (also sorry, and understanding about the drives. It is very tiring!)

 Now, if someone had alot of dogs in their small yard around here, then yeah, there would be some enforcement.  But, there really aren't limits, and I am in the county.  There are a couple loose labs and such, but they are 'street smart'.  I don't count on that.   The idea of a dog walker would be good, except that I am not in town, and I don't trust anyone to walk my dogs.  My boy is a regular traveling vacuum.  I'm not joking.  I am on constant and consistent lookout saying 'drop-it'.  I am sometimes shocked at what he has put in his mouth, trying to swallow.   He is also a  real houdini about bringing things into the house.  His mouth can hold a huge amount of something.  All this is things that other people wouldn't pick up on, but the tiny almost imprecepable (sp?) movements of his is something that I am 'trained' to watch for.  Yes, he has trained me well in some regards.

edited: I forgot, you asked about crating.  No, I stopped that several years ago, after my boy started having some big time anxiety with being left crated.  It was a large, large crate, but after he got about 2 years old,  it was just such a big anxiety issue with him, that I just couldn't do it anymore. It just broke my heart to see that level of anxiety from being crated, and I thought about how I would feel if someone put me in a closet every day.  When I knew that I would feel that exact same way - anxiety and stress - from not being able to stretch my legs and feeling traped, well I absolutely would not do that to him anymore.  My girl was fine with it, but he was not. So, neither have been crated since.  

Getting them to go on something inside is out of the question.  He will eat it.  Seriously.   I actually DID try and train them to use the stand up shower to go potty!  He was just tooooooo terrified of the whole experience, and I just couldn't get him used to the setup.  But (big grin).....I actually tried it with a thick steel wire covering so the pee would go thru it and the dogs wouldn't roll around in it. (they were still puppies).  Nope, of course that didn't work!   I don't think he would have went piddle in the shower anyway, b/c the slick surface was something that would bother him (not her, but it would have him). ........, but funny that you mentioned it.

I am highly confident my current ones won't jump out (after all, they've never crossed the 2 1/2' high barrier into the kitchen).    What I do know now is that some of the small dogs that were somewhat on my list, are now off.  The cresteds, the papillons, etc.  But, the dog that I would like, is still tentively on my list. I don't think it is a jumper like these other.  And, again, I still am so amazed at what these small dogs do.  My brain just keeps saying "no, it can't be!!"  LOL             And, if the dog isn't a jumper, but can get thru the fence, then I'll put up the fine mesh at the bottom.  I am thinking of doing some planting materials on the other side of the fence, and this will also serve as a 'visual' sign that that can't get thru (this is if I need it later for the smaller dog).

I appreciate the help in trying to come up with other solutions, but there isn't another one, but the fence.  Yes, mesh fencing might be better, *if* you did not have a climber.  If a dog can jump, it can probably climb, and there are some dogs that won't jump, but will climb.  So, even the wire fencing isn't the perfect answer, either.

It's a neighborhood where many of the people have lived here all their lives (just started having turnover in the last few years), but it's not one of those association neighborhoods where you have to tow the line.  Much more freedom here.  No, even the bit of barking they do now, would proably not be accepted in the many, new association neighborhoods.  I thought about moving to one of those, but the big drawback was that I wouldn't have the freedom with my dogs, and if they didn't like my dogs barking, then they could cause trouble.  Thankfully, I am blessed to be in a neighborhood that was formed many years before the association ones.  Much more freedom in this regard.  You are completely right in assuming that I would have problems in most places and their restrictions.   One of the nice reasons for staying here. But, I see your point, and why you mentioned the barking being a problem as it is a valid point.    But, all things considered, I think it will work out very well here.   So, the fence, with a 3" air space -- no puppy panel -- will be ordered on Monday.

I  thank everyone who made suggestions.  I know now that smaller dogs are not necessarily 'easier' dogs - LOL.