Dog walking off leash

I think a major difference between the UK and the US (and I've lived in both places, and Canada as well, which is similar to the UK in this regard) is that getting along with others and not troubling anyone is much more of a virtue in the UK than here. The US has a long history of staunch individualism which can sometimes be a real virtue, but at others just morphs into blatant selfishness and entitlement. Me me me. So in situations where the rules are fuzzy or don't exist at all, many Americans don't really stop to think about how their actions may impact others, even if they are perfectly legal (or at least easy to get away with).

There were some stoplights out on my way home the other day after a storm. Instead of everyone treating the intersection as a 4-way-stop, it was total anarchy. I couldn't believe it, it's basic drivers ed that a light out is a 4-way-stop--that way it's safe and organized and everyone can wait their turn to get where they're going. But in reality (and I've seen this happen many times in this situation) everyone just crams into the intersection with that attidue that where they are going is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than everyone else, they deserve to just sail right on through. When everyone has this attitude, it's really dangerous.

So in my experience, where leash laws don't exist or aren't enforced, no one stops to think "Should my dog be off leash in this situation? Will it be a problem for any other users of this area if she is? Would it be unfair to other users if I did this?" They just let their dogs off because they can and won't get caught. And try to point out, "You know, your dog being off leash is really limiting my enjoyment of this public space" and you'll get an earful. And I think part of that is defensiveness because people know in their heart of hearts that they are being selfish and rude but they don't want to admit it.

I've never been to England, so I can't comment on the differences.

I do know that in my neighborhood, an off-leash dog usually means trouble.  They are often dog aggressive dogs who have escaped or charged out of their yards while the owner suggests "Fifi stop!  Come back." 

At the dog parks, the majority of dogs are fine, but some people insist on bringing dogs who are not suited at all.  I frequented a local dog park when my dogs were under a year, and those experiences helped create the dog reactivity they developed.  There was one lady who was so crazy, she kept bringing two dogs that were dog aggressive. Her dogs started fights every time they came. One was HUMAN aggressive. It ran after another owner snapping and growling.  She would not stop coming, and eventually the other owners blocked the gate to prevent her from entering. 

We also have unofficial off-leash areas, where leash is the law but off leash is tolerated.  80% of the dogs being brought to these areas have good manners and their owners have control.  20% are the "friendly" untrained goldens and labs that people adore and dog reactive dogs loathe.  When an owner says his dog is friendly, it is usually code for "untrained."  [sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]

Despite my rants, I'm very tolerant of off-leash dogs. I don't mind when well behaved dogs are off leash in areas they should be leashed.  I like leash laws because they give you leverage over incompetent owners, but I'm content to use that leverage as little as possible. 

I wish the average American dog owner would get a clue.  Train, socialize, and control your dog! 

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I think a major difference between the UK and the US (and I've lived in both places, and Canada as well, which is similar to the UK in this regard) is that getting along with others and not troubling anyone is much more of a virtue in the UK than here. The US has a long history of staunch individualism which can sometimes be a real virtue, but at others just morphs into blatant selfishness and entitlement. Me me me. So in situations where the rules are fuzzy or don't exist at all, many Americans don't really stop to think about how their actions may impact others, even if they are perfectly legal (or at least easy to get away with).

There were some stoplights out on my way home the other day after a storm. Instead of everyone treating the intersection as a 4-way-stop, it was total anarchy. I couldn't believe it, it's basic drivers ed that a light out is a 4-way-stop--that way it's safe and organized and everyone can wait their turn to get where they're going. But in reality (and I've seen this happen many times in this situation) everyone just crams into the intersection with that attidue that where they are going is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than everyone else, they deserve to just sail right on through. When everyone has this attitude, it's really dangerous.

So in my experience, where leash laws don't exist or aren't enforced, no one stops to think "Should my dog be off leash in this situation? Will it be a problem for any other users of this area if she is? Would it be unfair to other users if I did this?" They just let their dogs off because they can and won't get caught. And try to point out, "You know, your dog being off leash is really limiting my enjoyment of this public space" and you'll get an earful. And I think part of that is defensiveness because people know in their heart of hearts that they are being selfish and rude but they don't want to admit it.

Agreed.  I think for off leashness to work on a large scale here would be impossible without a complete attitude change on the part of the population.

I have had three incidents where I encountered a loose dog that behaved itself.  Once with a young golden well trained enough to remain in the down-stay its owners put it in as we passed, once was a lab who was under very good voice comtrol, and once (I was really impressed with this one) was at the beach where a woman held all four of her dogs in a sit-stay off leash while I passed with Jack.  Other than that, my experiences have been rather negative.  There are people in my area who literally will not even bother to BRING a leash with them on an outing, and I don't live out in the counrty at all.

In a nearby town there was an incident where a pair of loose bull mastiffs tore apart a family's dog right in front of them at a public park (this is not an area where that kind of thing happens often either) and in another town in our area a guy had to shoot a loose GSD to stop him from killing his lab.

I've lived in the US for as long as I've lived in Europe. One thing I firmly believe in now, is that in America "control form the top" is preferred by your average Joe, which then in return helps keep this status quo. The implications of this phenomena don't end around this "off leash" debate - it spills into other social areas too... Whether you do or do not have leash laws - it's first and foremost about personal responsibility and knowing your dog!

I really think leash laws should be obeyed.  We have a lot of land, so Jester walks with me off-leash on my property.  However, whenever we go on a "real walk" he is on leash.  It's not that I think he'd run away or anything.  I just think it's very rude to walk your dog off a leash.  My little Papillon seems to trip the prey drive in a lot of dogs and nothing makes me more nervous on a walk than seeing a person walking their dog off leash and wondering, "Is that dog going to go after Jester?" "Is this the day that something is interesting enough for that dog to forget his training?"  I hate it. 

I just think it's very rude to walk your dog off a leash. My little Papillon seems to trip the prey drive in a lot of dogs and nothing makes me more nervous on a walk than seeing a person walking their dog off leash and wondering, "Is that dog going to go after Jester?" "Is this the day that something is interesting enough for that dog to forget his training?" I hate it.

ORIGINAL: papillon64

While I am an off leash walker, I understand your perspective.  Because I have a breed that, partially due to police usage as well as bad owners, has a reputation for aggression, I am always aware that a lot of people are uncomfortable around GSDs even when leashed.  My dog is never off leash around much smaller dogs.  I also think some dogs are triggered by GSDs no matter what the GSD does or how they act.
 
My dog has actually been bitten by an off-leash Jack Russell while my wife was walking her (on leash) and never barked or responded aggresively or even defensively.  Small dogs usually start acting aggressive/defensive from a greater distance than larger dogs.  I used to think they were more bluffers than biters but now think that (generally) the ropensity to bite is inversely related to size.  I also do not want my dog to change from passive to aggressive so I need to prevent her being bitten again which may trigger her to be dog aggressive.

I don't walk off-leash in our neighborhood or in a public park, but we have some woods near us and I frequently go hiking with the dogs off leash there. About the only other people I ever see in these woods are other dog owners walking their dogs offleash, and in 3 years I've had no problems.

On the other hand, at our local off-leash dog park, I've dealt with a number of confrontations/potential fights, so that I no longer go there. I sometimes get the feeling that because it's legal to have dogs offleash in the dog park, owners don't use their common sense there.

I walk Sam off leash in a wooded trail area.  I love to let him roam, sniff, chase and be a dog.  I myself do not like dogs to come up to me off leash so Sam is not allowed to approach anyone off leash.  He is always in sight and will stop and wait for me to catch up.  We do not walk off leash outside the trails for his safety.  I cannot take that chance as I know if i do not catch him before he takes off after a squirrel...there is no coming back.
Maggie, I would eventually like to walk off leash but she has no desire to run much at all.  She's not breaking and speed records I tell ya that much.

Because I have a breed that, partially due to police usage as well as bad owners, has a reputation for aggression, I am always aware that a lot of people are uncomfortable around GSDs even when leashed. My dog is never off leash around much smaller dogs. I also think some dogs are triggered by GSDs no matter what the GSD does or how they act.

This is exactly how I feel as well and why I'll keep my GSD leashed unless we are at the lake on our own family's property.  People are scared of GSDs, it's just a reality.  I'm sure many pit bull owners will well-trained pits feel the same way.  When I walk dogs, it's not only for their good, but for me as well.  I like to daydream and just relax, take my mind off of everything.  Trying to walk an off-leash GSD, no matter how safe and obedient, will ruin the walk for me b/c I've got to contstantly be aware of people who would be frightened of my dog or people whose dogs will react negatively towards my dog.  I'm not blaming THEM at all.  It's just another responsibility specific to the breed that I need to be aware of.  I can't convince every pedestrian out for a stroll that my dog is well socialized, nor do I expect every person to be accepting of my dog.  I'd rather just keep her on a lead so we can both enjoy our walks without bothering other people and dogs.

I guess that's the heart of the issue for me - there's too much you have to look out for and be aware of when walking off-leash and for me, the walk is a time to relax and just be moving forward without a lot of analysis, so there's just no point in walking off-lead.

Americans think of dogs as a right rather than a privilege.

Bang on!

 I wonder why there have been so many posts about dogs wandering at large without owners,or dogs escaping from their yards,ill mannered dogs,anti-social dogs etc etc etc,could it be that the owners of these dogs dont have the time,ebergy or inclination to train their dogs because they are too busy with work and social lives?Are the dogs that escape from yards so bored because their owners are never there and/or dont exercise them that they have to make their own entertainment.
My dogs may not be the norm,but i can leave my back gate open and my dogs will not leave,the gardner has accidentally left the side gate open on a few ocasions,and i didnt notice till days later [&o] I have accidentally locked my dogs out the front before when i thought they have gone through the back way and they will sit at the front door whining for me to let them in.

I realise people NEED to work,but they dont NEED to have a dog....

who literally will not even bother to BRING a leash with them on an outing,

Unless i have to walk on the street to our destination then i dont bring a lead with me either.Most times i drive to wherever i am walking my dogs.

I just think it's very rude to walk your dog off a leash.

I think it is very rude of people to expect dog owners with well behaved,social dogs to have their dogs on lead.Let me worry about my dogs and you worry about yours [sm=happy.gif] Why should my dogs be stifled on walks because of someone elses issues?? If they were agressive,untrained,charged up to people/dogs or whatever, then ofcourse i would have them on leads,but as it stands they are not so i have no reason to punish them for their good behaviour

there's too much you have to look out for and be aware of when walking off-leash and for me, the walk is a time to relax and just be moving forward without a lot of analysis, so there's just no point in walking off-lead.

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Isnt it a responsible thing to teach ones dogs to walk reliably off lead? What if one day the dog slips his lead,or gets away from you,wouldnt you feel better if you have reliably trained him to handle being off lead?

I may be reading your post wrong,but in my first post i said something like,it is easier for people to have their dogs on lead then it is to train them,is this right in your case? I mean,you havnt even got your dog yet and it seems your being pessimistic?

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All the off leash people wind up doing is creating anger in the other dog owners, and convincing people that don't have dogs, that dogs are a menace.
This statement might be better-written if you posted it as "all the inattentive off-leash owners and their ill-managed dogs..." Written like that, I could agree. They restrict my freedoms as a responsible, respectful dog-owner to bring a well-managed, trained, obedient, loving, sweet, reliable, trustworthy dog onto property previously dog-friendly.


Here here! There are some dogs and some locations where it is fine to let dogs off-leash, and the irresponsible idiots who can't figure this out ruin it for everyone. And the ones who let their dogs run out of control at the end of flexis are NOT responsible or in control of their dogs just because they have a leash on the dog. It's not about leashes, it's about control and responsibility.

Mudpuppy, well put. It is about control and responsibility. I watch people with their dogs all day--in fact I am somewhat responsible for Dog Relations at the park. And I have yet to see a piece of leather or nylon actually making a difference in terms of the actual impact a dog has on its surroundings or its fellow park-goers.

There are lots of low-impact dogs and responsible owners--on leashes and off. And lots of irresponsible owners and ill-trained dogs that do almost as much picnic grabbing, toddler scaring, old-lady molesting and dogfighting onleash as they do off.

Bob and Sally can disagree with me and that's fine. But I actually walk around a park between eight and fifteen hours at least five days a week and field dog problems. My two plus years of experience at this job tells me that leashes are useful tools for responsible people, and that irresponsible buttheads will figure out a way to let their dogs get in trouble with folks regardless of what their dog is wearing.

The rules for leashes should be pretty simple, shouldn't they? Leash your dog where it's legally mantadory and if your dog is disobedient. Is that so hard?

Isnt it a responsible thing to teach ones dogs to walk reliably off lead? What if one day the dog slips his lead,or gets away from you,wouldnt you feel better if you have reliably trained him to handle being off lead?

I may be reading your post wrong,but in my first post i said something like,it is easier for people to have their dogs on lead then it is to train them,is this right in your case? I mean,you havnt even got your dog yet and it seems your being pessimistic?

If you read that post carefully, I was speaking (and had quoted someone else) about having a German Shepherd.   People are scared of German Shepherds, that's just a fact, at least around here.  They see one coming, even one that is on a lead with a harness or prong collar and they are still scared.  Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do to change that, as rarely someone's fear will subside after just passing a single GSD on the street or me inviting them to pet it.  That's why I said it's easier to have this specific dog on a lead.  She walks perfectly well and is perfectly socialized around people and other dogs.  I've also met four other dogs from her breeder (one of them was my dog's son) and they were the same - great gentle, laid-back temperaments.  They don't even bother to glance at other dogs and they really love people, even strangers.  Of course it's responsible to teach the dog to be reliable off-lead, hence Chop's obedience and agility training, and training we will continue to do and work for a CGC title.  But the fact remains that a lot of people are going to be scared of her.  So why should my desire to walk my dog off-lead supercede their desire to have a nice walk around the neighborhood?   Remember in my other posts I have stated that we HAVE leash laws here.  Not only leash laws, but a leash law that explicity requires a lead 6 feet or shorter.  Also, like I said earlier, I don't like the attitude that "it's my RIGHT to have a dog and let it walk off-lead", because I don't believe it is.  Owning a dog is a privilege and a huge responsibity, a responsibility that definitely includes abiding by local laws whether I agree with them or not and being respectful of other people and taking their concerns into consideration.

So in short, yes you did read that post wrong b/c I was talking about owning a GSD, not looking for an excuse not to train a dog.  The dog was raised and lives with a professional trainer and I've already found another trainer in my area who is going to do private lessons with us.  But I can't expect JQP on the street to instantly let go of their fear, thus I will keep my dog leashed for their sake and for my own sake (so people can't accuse her of "looking like she's going to attack").  I HOPE that I can use my dog as a good example of the breed and invite people to come pet her and see how obedience and friendly they can be, but as someone who has had fears and phobias, I know that for many people, this cannot be accomplished just by spending 30 seconds with a strange dog on the street.

I was at a Park along the Chattahoochiee River today that is run by the federal park commision, on a nature trail that runs along the river. THis place is rfeally in the woods, with nobody around except the people on the train which  fairly  nonexistant during the week.   Smokey and I were down by the river, taking a break,  and she was wading in the water, and a Park Ranger SUV pulled up with a  Ranger inside. He got out, and came down to where we were sitting and said " Do you have a leash for that dog?"  I held up the leash , and he said.. " OK" Glad I don't have to hand out another summons today".  He got in his SUV and left.........
[linkhttp://www.nps.gov/chat/]http://www.nps.gov/chat/[/link]

But I can't expect JQP on the street to instantly let go of their fear, thus I will keep my dog leashed for their sake

I dont particularly like pitt bulls,and i do fear for my dogs safety when i see one off leash,but i would never,ever in a blind fit tell them,or even expect them to put their dog on a leash because of MY issues.