2 dogs, bro and sis, when/how to prevent Caligula/Nero puppies ???

    • Gold Top Dog

    2 dogs, bro and sis, when/how to prevent Caligula/Nero puppies ???

    2 dogs, bro and sis, when/how to prevent Caligula/Nero puppies ???

    Have 2 Lhasa Apsos, brother & sister, born Jan. 17, 2007.  Female ready to mate in 6-8 months, which makes it this July/August.
    Want to prevent puppies from brother & sister, so as to avoid Nero/Caligula Caeserian lineage problem.
    Simple answer--castrate brother and/or fix sister.

    Issue:  Would like to keep from mutilating either dog and altering these animal's behaviour.

    Some questions:

    1.  Am looking for suggestions on ways to do this from experienced folks.

    2. What medical techniques are available for male other than castration ?  Seems that some vas deferens method should be available, maybe similiar to those used on men.

    2. What medical techniques are available for female ?

    3.   What NON-medical techniques/methods/handling, etc. can be used for either dog ?

    4.  What would be the consequences in the unfortunate event that brother and sister mated and produced offspring, and what to do then ?


    Note:  No political PC harangues re. "must fix your dogs or world will end", etc.  Am looking for real help and info about dogs, dogs, dogs, NOT politics.  Post that stuff somewhere else.  No hysteria please.
    • Gold Top Dog
    You can keep the dogs TOTALLY separated....and doggy "vasectomies" are possible but I don't know how many vets do them.

    Your female needs to be AT LEAST 2 years old before you breed her. Anything younger than that is unfair to her, and increases the risk of death for her and the puppies.

    Politics aside...this is an issue you probably should have thought of before getting a brother and sister, especially from the same litter. Raging hormones on both sides are going to make your life very difficult.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'd recommend boarding the male for the entire month the female is in heat. Actually, I'd recommend neutering both of them.
    If you mess up and get a breeding, abort it. You don't want to bring brother-sister pups into the world for their own sake.
    • Silver
    Personally, in some terms, I have to somewhat agree with you in the regards of castration and total hysterectomy with dogs but in others because we cannot communicate and/or totally control the hormone rages (and that is a good word for it too) that comes with an intake dog, it seems the only logical end result.  Drastic as it seems.  Here is something from the web.  I hope it helps.
    [linkhttp://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1625&articleid=911]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1625&articleid=911[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Of course, option number one if you had moral problems against altering dogs would have been to think it through and not get a brother and sister, or a male and female.  Period.

    However, that is obviously not the case.  The only non-surgical thing you can do is keep them completely separated when she is in heat.  Of course, you would have to be very alert to make sure you knew when she started her cycle, or you could have an "Oops!" 

    Surgically, the easiest thing you could do (other than neutering) is get the male a vasectomy.  Most vets probably don't offer it as a service (although they should all know how).  I would try going to a vet school and have them do it.  Often the somewhat unusual procedures are only performed by vet school faculty and not by vets in private practice.  However, take note, a vasectomy will not stop some of the unpleasant male behavior that neutering would.  He will still attempt to mount the female and will be likely to mark in your house (especially considering he's a little dog).
    • Gold Top Dog
    Poor showing. **Content Removed** Too, too preachy, and too trite, without offering any useful info, lacking any incisiveness.  **Content Removed**

    I've discussed this with my vet, who is a normal person, you know, reasonable, intelligent, fair-minded, dedicated, said many of her patients handle whole dog pairs well.  I was foolishly hoping that I could get additional advice re. this matter on this forum.  **Content Removed**

    Over the years, I've gotten some very good responses from fourm postings on the internet,**Content Removed**

    We will see if it's actually possible for anyone to post on topic ?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Having had the experience of two intact opposite sex dogs I will say this:  When your female is in heat, your male's behavior will be altered-and not in a good way.  Typically he won't eat, probably won't sleep much, he'll bark, whine, howl, scratch and try to chew through iron just to get to the girl.  In fact you'll probably want to get tranqs for him just so he doesn't hurt himself. 

    You won't be able to have the two dogs together for any time at all.  All it takes is one quick second and they're tied.  I know, it happened to me.  I turned my back for roughly 5 seconds and my two were tied.  Alot of breeders that I know will send the males away for 3 weeks every time the bitches go into heat.  I know breeders that will send their neutered males away as well.  Why?  Because the bitches become bitchy, insistent and ridiculously sex-driven and either won't leave the males alone or they want to kill the male for every little transgression.

    Your female when approaching estrus will become moody and bitchy.  So much so that you won't be sure if she's the same dog.  Then the spotting starts.  Some dogs spot a little, some alot.  Some dogs don't even spot at all.  They can also go into a "silent heat."  Lot's of fun for you there.  You'll have every dog in the world in your back yard, looking for a quickie with no strings attached.

    Spaying, IMO, doesn't alter the female's behavior other than it equalizes the highs and lows therefore moderating the mood swings-which at this early age you probably haven't seen yet.

    Neutering does the same but on a larger scale with the males.  The male is alot less sex driven and less likely to cause a ruckus when around other males.  [sm=2cents.gif]


    • Gold Top Dog
    We all posted on topic. None of us were preachy. You just didn't like the answers, and that's not our problem.
    • Gold Top Dog
    *Previous edit* A pleasanter attitude might go a long way.  Holding my breath....
    • Gold Top Dog
    almost every poster has mentioned keeping the two dogs separated during the heat cycle. that is the only fooproof way of preventing a litter other than spay/neuter.

    i think mudpuppy offered the best advice to your last question... abort the puppies should an accidental pregnancy occur.

    i dont know how less politically to respond.[&:]
    • Gold Top Dog
    breeders and show people frequently keep intact opposite sex animals. More than one that I know uses the "board the males out" during the entire heat period. So you have to watch carefully for the first sign the female is coming into heat, re-home the male for about a month, and during that month you're going to have to be incredibly diligent about keeping the female from breeding with random male dogs. And dogs have been known to breed through fences, go through walls to breed, etc. And you have to do this twice a year for the entire lifespan of the dogs. And as the female gets older you're going to have to watch for signs of pyrometra. And what about false pregnancies and its associated irritating to everyone behaviors?  I suspect if you get the male a vasectomy and let him mate the female you're going to have a lot of false pregnancies.
    Most breeders happily neuter their dogs once their breeding/show careers are over. Not for political reasons, but for their dogs sake and their own sanity.
    • Gold Top Dog
    You may not have to do anything.  The female may not allow it and the male may respect the female's wishes. 
     
    I had an intact female Great Dane in my home and just recently got her spayed in her 9th year for medical reasons.  She has never had puppies.  She would not allow any male (mostly fixed but a few intake) to mount.  She did have the advantage of height and a good snap.  I do have a pack of 6 dogs and 3 are normally fosters.  I do remember that while she was in her first season, we were attending agility classes.  From what I know today, I am surprised the instructor allowed her to participate but none of the other males in the class went bonkers.  I did have bitches britches on her.  Maybe this girl was just one of kind.
     
    Today, I do recommend absolute separation and S/N.  But I did want to tell you my personal experience.
    • Gold Top Dog

    ORIGINAL: DPU

    You may not have to do anything.  The female may not allow it and the male may respect the female's wishes. 



    To imply in the slightest that a wait-and-see attitude is appropriate here is frankly dangerous.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: DPU

    You may not have to do anything.  The female may not allow it and the male may respect the female's wishes. 

     
    Whether the female may allow it or not, it is still possible he will get his way...
    • Gold Top Dog
    The OP asked 1. Am looking for suggestions on ways to do this from experienced folks.
     
    I communicated my real life experience and I thought my last statement was a commentary that this option is not good choice.