Obama (Ties to Islam?)

sillysally

.......nobody had better vote for me.....

 I marked that down, just in case you ever decide to run

dgriego,I respect your right not to vote for Obama for any reason you like, but just for the record, he is NOT the most liberal senator, http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/687/  and the allegations about his religion and birthplace and citizenship have been completely debunked by non-biased, non-partisan sources - they are completely false.

As you said, you wouldn't vote for him anyway, but I think it's important that people have facts and stop perpetuating the rumors and lies. Sources for the truth about the candidates positions and especially those campaign ads, are factcheck.org, politifact.com, and the Washington Post fact checker.

dgriego

 if there were no allegations concerning his birthplace or his citizenship

Now this sounds like it came directly from one of those crazy e-mails I get from my BIL in Tennessee on a daily basis. Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961 .... two years after Hawaii became a state. If there were any doubts about his citizenship, do you really think he'd be running for president?

Joyce

When did Obama return to the states. His mom moved him not long after he was born. According to Snopes, the birth certificate is real and sealed by the dept of Health, Hawaii, USA. That is, the electronic fascimile of the document shown by snopes.com shows him being born in Hawaii and that Hawaii was, and still is, of course, a state, not just a territory or commonwealth, which can also be covered if they are under jurisdiction of the US. According to wikipedia, the questions of citizenship are not so easily answered, as there is case law, as if questions of citizenship could be answered by tort law or mere precedent, rather than specific legal definitions.

So, then, I could ask myself, which candidates have demonstrated service to their country, so far? Three have been senators, one has been governor. One of the senators has served, wounded and captured in combat, held as a POW. A bona fide war hero. Not that such a distinction is a requirement. But it means a lot. But it might be unfair to the others. Biden was medically disqualified from service, as I was medically disqualified. If I could have served, I would have. At my age, I would have been in the Honduras, the Falkland Islands, Bosnia. If I had gone career, I would have been in the Gulf War. Would have probably been in Afghanistan, M-24 on my back, though I would prefer a Mossberg .308, scoped and sighted at 600 yds.

But that doesn't mean I would be a good president.

We've determined that Obama may worship as he sees fit and that he isn't a religious radical. But I am not going to shut up about as long as keep hearing about Palin's religious opinions. Either they can both have religious opinions or I won't shut up about it.

What does that leave? How about tenure as an elected official and most importantly, how do they respond to the needs and wants of the public who elects them? One person in this race shines far and away above the rest. Some people call it caving in to pressure, I call it responding to and representing the people, willing to amend or change a policy as is needed to serve the greater good, a principle of democracy.

True, we are somewhat captive by what gets attention.

Christian fundamentalists protest at clinics that provide termination services. Some islamic fundamentalists crash 4 jetliners and kill thousands and "awaken the sleep giant" (those words actually coined by Hirohito after the attack on Pearl Harbor) that is the USA, who proceed to open a major can of kick-butt. The US will not tolerate terrorism, foreign or domestic. McVeigh was executed.

So, being careful is not a sin. And to Obama's credit, he is handling the scrutiny well. As for being commander in chief, I would trust moreso McCain in that spot. The one person who tries to avoid war is the soldier. And often times, that can be accomplished by having a stronger military and stronger intelligence. If am carrying a claymore (double-edged broadsword about 4.5 to 5 feet in length) and the enemy is carrying a pin knife, he might just back down from a useless engagement. Our most successful engagement in recent history was the Gulf War. We accomplished the objective with minimal loss of life. Our CIC was Bush Sr., a decorated war hero who was shot down in combat.

As a nation, we still hurt and grieve for 9-11-01. And it's only natural that we are going to wonder what flavor of Islam a person is going to be linked to. It's also extremely honest and valid for us to acknowledge that.

And a president knows many things that we don't know. A candidate can get elected and by the time they are through the de-briefing, post-election, they are a different person by inauguration. The office changes you.

ron2

And a president knows many things that we don't know. A candidate can get elected and by the time they are through the de-briefing, post-election, they are a different person by inauguration. The office changes you.

This is going way off the original topic, but FWIW I agree with you.

Except I would take it a step further and say that campaigning for the office of POTUS changes a candidate.  Just look what it's done to McCain.  From "Mr. Straight Talk Express" to someone who is running a campaign based on disception and outright lies.  That tells me a whole lot about his judgment, morals and how he'd do as POTUS.  A few months ago I was waivering a bit about who to vote for.  McCain's actions and the decisions he's made in running his campaign since then have made it crystal clear to me that Obama is by far the better choice.

Myra

Just look what it's done to McCain.  From "Mr. Straight Talk Express" to someone who is running a campaign based on disception and outright lies. 

And I disagree with you. He's becoming a better politician, yes. Obama, an excellent public speaker, has no special hold on the truth. I don't see where McCain has been deceptive. Or is it that you have that opinion since he waited until he was actually nominated to name Palin as VP? I believe he was just following the rules, i.e., he doesn't have to decide on a VP until he has actually won the nomination. This would have a tendency to focus the race, especially the first part of it, on presidential candidates.

As for politicians being deceptive, how easy it is to forget that HIllary and Bill shredded and obscured several documents before being called to testify in the Whitewater mess. Or the deception she enabled regarding Bill's promiscuity by not saying anything about it. Deceptive? Yes. Politically savvy? Most definitely.

Cassidys Mom

dgriego,I respect your right not to vote for Obama for any reason you like, but just for the record, he is NOT the most liberal senator, http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/687/  and the allegations about his religion and birthplace and citizenship have been completely debunked by non-biased, non-partisan sources - they are completely false.

As you said, you wouldn't vote for him anyway, but I think it's important that people have facts and stop perpetuating the rumors and lies. Sources for the truth about the candidates positions and especially those campaign ads, are factcheck.org, politifact.com, and the Washington Post fact checker.

 If he is not number one he is for sure in the top bracket for being liberal

http://www.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/sen/lib.htm

 So in my opinion we might be able to safely say regarding his citizenship that it appears these allegations are untrue but at this time we cannot say for certain that they are.

dgriego

 

 So in my opinion we might be able to safely say regarding his citizenship that it appears these allegations are untrue but at this time we cannot say for certain that they are.

What exactly are these allegations?  The requirements for president say "natural born citizen" which he is.  What difference does it make where his parents were born or where they lived or where he lived growing up? If you were born in the U.S. you're a citizen.

Joyce

Depends on which source you use. Snopes thinks like you do. Born on US soil, american citizen. Wikipedia, however, cites a number of landmark cases that still leave some question.

ron2

Depends on which source you use. Snopes thinks like you do. Born on US soil, american citizen. Wikipedia, however, cites a number of landmark cases that still leave some question.

If he has gone as far as to accept the Democratic nomination, I'm sure the powers that be have no doubts as to the legality of his citizenship .... Wikipedia aside.

Joyce

 Lots of my ancestors were Catholic.  I've never been a Catholic, nor am I now, nor do I want to be, not that there's anything wrong with being one..  So, if Obama's ancestors were Muslims, how is he different from me in that sense?   Muslims are not infidels any more than Christians are, and either faith can provide opportunities for skewing the tenets of the faith to fit the schemes of tyrants.  The unknown is always frightening, and lots of you are just scared over something that is not real, has no basis in fact, and is not a legitimate reason for voting for or against anyone in a land where people have died to insure religious freedom continues as one of our basic rights.  Like him or hate him, I don't think Obama is a Muslim, but I certainly do think that many people are still nervous about the color of his skin.  I'm not.

I also don't think you have to have gone to war yourself to be a patriot.  Or a warrior.  We fight many battles in life, and that's just one.

And I am willing to agree to everyone's freedom of religion. Obama is free to go to a church where the pastor had many controversial things to say. And let him be known as christian which is how he identifies himself most times. You say many agreeable things.

And no, you don't have to serve in combat to be patriotic or be worthy of the office of president.

But my expression of my history was not meant to say that, it was meant to explain why I feel the way I do. And if so many people can have a good feeling for Obama in spite of his lack of experience, his ambiguity on some issues, etc., am I not allowed to have my feelings, as well?

And all this started over one person's feeling of wrongness about a candidate, a candidate who is not here to defend herself or explain everything that goes in government. And it all just grew from there.

But, as I said before, my feelings will not go away. For someone who will not respect and honor the flag that my family and friends paid for is not going to get my honor and respect. Yes, I am provincial. I also have bad hair days. Once in a while, I sing a wrong note.

Be that as it may, Obama being in this election is a good thing for several reasons, namely bring both parties closer to middle of the road, imo.

dgriego

His status as a citizen is still up in the air, although I lean towards agreeing with you, there is still a open lawsuit filed against him on this and it was filed by a democrat (yes a crazy one) not a republican. This should be put to rest 100%.

 So in my opinion we might be able to safely say regarding his citizenship that it appears these allegations are untrue but at this time we cannot say for certain that they are.

 No, it isn't up in the air. And yes, we can say that for certain, nutjobs of either political persuasion and their ridiculous lawsuits aside.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/ 

From factcheck: In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen. But the image prompted more blog-based skepticism about the document's authenticity. And recently, author Jerome Corsi, whose book attacks Obama, said in a TV interview that the birth certificate the campaign has is "fake."

We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

We think our colleagues at PolitiFact.com, who also dug into some of these loopy theories put it pretty well: "It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible. But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over."

In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961: [see link for image]

 Of course, it's distantly possible that Obama's grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat. The evidence is clear: Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.

********************* 

It's a done deal. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not have the facts, or chooses not to believe them in favor of some bizarre conspiracy theory.

Maybe I didn't state it overtly enough before but I accept the document as valid. Obama was born on US soil. According to the interpretations of the laws, both Obama and McCain are citizens of the United States, natural citizens, and therefore eligible to run for president.

I don't think Obama has ties to terrorists and his muslim heritage is an "accident of birth", so to speak. It's not anything he overtly did, just a fact of his life that his father was muslim and, for whatever reason, his parents gave him that name to preserve familial heritage. (I don't know for whom I am named but I've been called worse.)

He is an effective public speaker and people feel good listening to him. But I wouldn't say that such qualities and effects are what it takes to run the nation. That requires more than just well-chosen words.

And even as I can tell by the tone of your post that you are a bit peeved about this discussion, please remember that people are just being honest about their misgivings. It's better than everyone politely ignoring the orangutang in the living room, to borrow an expression. Just as I had earlier, in another thread, spoke of misgivings at Obama's name, I also pointed out that it was a personal flaw of mine and not meant to disregard his ability or chances at the presidency. Just me being unflinchingly honest. Even if my misgivings were misguided or eventually unimportant. I have pointed out, ad nauseum, that I say what I think or know, regardless of the politics. For one thing, when I say care not of a person's gender or ethnicity, I mean that with the same surity and mundaneness as when I say the sun is shining at this particular moment. That's part of the reason I got involved in this discussion. To remain true to my words. And when I say I would vote for Rice if she ran, I mean it as suredly as I mean it when I say that in about 30 minutes, I'm going to be grilling some petite sirloin steaks.

I may not be the easiest person to get along with but I mean what I say and I will uphold all of our freedom to speak as we wish. Upholding it in whatever way that I can.

dgriego

cyclefiend2000

this person seems to have a pretty good handle on why we should elect obama...

http://www.huliq.com/3255/67668/triumph-gop-white-trailer-trash

 so you believe Palin is "white trailer trash"?

i posted that to show that there are extremists on both sides of the isle. ;)