Shock Collar Recommendation?

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I hope you're not planning to use high-level "aversion training", i.e. just hit the dog with a massive high-level shock to stop him from chasing the animals?  cruel and likely to cause problems.

here is a link to reviews of various ecollars:  [linkhttp://www.gundogsupply.com/dog-training-collars-buyers-guide.html]http://www.gundogsupply.com/dog-training-collars-buyers-guide.html[/link]

and here is a link to how to properly train your dog to not chase animals: [linkhttp://www.loucastle.com/critter.htm]http://www.loucastle.com/critter.htm[/link]

I read the link on training.  Sounds really impractacle, when the same thing can be accomplished with and E Collar and is done all the time, by the way...

the link on training does use an ecollar.

I have heard excellent things on the Dogtra. Most pros use them and that's what I would go by. I agree, the llamas will kill your dog the very first time - you will not have a second chance. Kill as in dead.

The cattle won't be far behind although they do get used to dogs just passing through. You don't want your dogs in the sheep either - it's just too tempting and the "reward" of seeing their little butts bounding over the horizon or - yay! even better! - crashing into a fence and then kicking helplessly, stunned - it's really too much for even the most well-trained dog to stand.

That's why we use corrections in stock training and why all sheep farmers have guns.

I suspect you'll already be thinking along these lines, but let me tell you how it works here to keep untrained dogs out of the stock. Oh, not here, where we used to live - we don't have all the fencing set up yet.

An inner fence where the dogs can't even see the stock. We used "cattle panels" which are 52 inches tall, rigid welded wire panels, with no more than 4 inch gaps between horizontal and vertical wires.

An outer fence where the dogs can play, supervised. Off leash training starts here.

On leash training using a long line. Multiple walks within sight of the stock - no messing around, just going somewhere. We have a pond here where we go play. Once we are past the stock, the dogs get "released" and go straight to the pond.

on leash training continues in sight of stock - first short call offs, then longer and longer using the long line - I have a light line that is fifty feet long, but rarely need that much line. By that time the dog knows to come to my side automatically if I turn from the stock and leave. If I am not there, they are to have NOTHING to do with the stock. No lookee, no playee, no barkee, no chasee. That's stood me in good stead a couple times when I didn't close a kennel door right and came home to find one of the fosters loose, obviously having spent the entire day that way. Good boy. Bad me. []

Now, I stop there because I obviously want my dogs to have some contact with the stock and don't want them to associate that with bad stuff. I'd wait and see how my dogs responded to the above, if I were in your situation, and if it seemed like they were still casting longing eyes over to the sheepies, I'd contact a trainer right away. Doing this effectively is well worth the money, otherwise you will be throwing a few hundred dollars and possibly the life of your dogs, away.

Brookcove, thanks for the tips! One problem right now is that the sheep and llama are just roaming free right now, so I could walk out the door and see them standing on my porch. I think first thing's first, I need to contain them somewhere! There's lots of fencing around, though. The property is equipped as a sheep farm, so there are several sections fenced off including a corral, which is fenced off with 10' tall pieces of wood. That's attached to the barn, so I think that'd be a good place to keep them at least for a while. Obviously, they need to go out to pasture to eat... I'll take a closer look at the place and see how I can set things up. I'm sure on 160 acres, we can give everyone their space!

As far as the cattle, the seller had an agreement that they would rent the land until it sold, so I'm not sure how long they'll be there... we might keep renting it once we move there... we'll see. The dogs weren't very interested in the cattle last time we were there, but we'll see about next time.

We have 2 dogs at our dog park that have been trained using the E collar, and the other dog owners are amazed at how quickly and well these dogs have been trained.

What happens when the collar is taken off?? I have often heard dogs will only perform when the collar is on,so infact they arent as well trained as first thought.

Edie, I asked kindly that there be no flaming. Although, I assume you haven't read my entire post because I said I was going to use positive training methods and use the e-collar as little as possible.

Rolenta i read your post a few times over,and i also thought i respected your request of no flaming.You should visit dog sites from countries where electric shock collars are illegal if you really want to see flaming [8|] I hope your request didnt mean you only wanted to hear the pro's and nice stories of these collars?? I think it is also very important to hear the cons and the negative stories of how these collars have managed to wreck dogs. I implore you to look into BOTH sides of this debate,for the sake of you and most importantly your dogs.

I guess my biggest concern from your post is that your dogs havnt even demonstrated any chasing yet,and already your considering this type of aversion training.

In England it was not uncommon for dogs to get shot on a regular basis for chasing sheep or even getting to near to them,thankfully owners are very aware of this nowadays so i hope this doesnt happen often anymore. My point is,that electric shock collars are illegal in Britain,aswell as other countries, and many,many owners have managed to train their dogs not to chase animals,including llama etc without having to resort to shock tactics.
One of my dogs had a penchant for horses and nearly got stomped to death on a few occasions,she couldnt help but chase them,and we walk through horse paddocks pretty regularly,my other dog was also heading down the same path copying her behaviour.I wont bore you with how i trained her out of it,mostly long line and loads of reward games and treats,but suffice to say she doesnt blink an eye at horses anymore.

In a matter of weeks, they have learned what some owners have been trying to accomplish for a year or more. For rock solid recall and distance training, the E Collar can't be beat in my opinion.

I've always said that owners who use these things,and i'm not accusing you of this Rolenta,prefer the easy way,why bother taking the time and effort to train the dog when they can slap a shock collar on the dog and press a button.Whatever happened to training,trainers,training schools and plain old fashioned one on one time with their dogs??
And Bob by the way,my dogs have rock solid recall no matter how far away they are,yes it took alot of training,and sweat and sometimes blood and tears on my part,but after much perserverance and time all of the dogs i have ever had have had great recalls.It sounds as if you are saying shock collars are the only way to train these behaviours?

Rolenta i wont comment on your thread anymore.All i ask is that you research  both the pro's AND cons,this will be the only way you will be able to make an informed decision.

I guess my biggest concern from your post is that your dogs havnt even demonstrated any chasing yet,and already your considering this type of aversion training.

Look at what kinds of dogs she has....at the very least, I'd expect Tojo to try something.  He's a Shiba!  Curiosity, mischief, and chasing things are what his breed are FOR!  I'd sure as heck be concerned the little half pint would decide he could take on a llama...
 

My point is,that electric shock collars are illegal in Britain,aswell as other countries

That doesn't make it the right (or smart) solution.
 

and many,many owners have managed to train their dogs not to chase animals,including llama etc without having to resort to shock tactics.

I find it interesting that people automatically assume that just because others don't have the option of using the e-collar means they went with positive methods (because that is what this comment has the tone of).  Just because the e-collar isn't available to the British doesn't mean those dogs weren't cranked on or had other aversives used on them to keep them away from livestock.
 

Whatever happened to training,trainers,training schools and plain old fashioned one on one time with their dogs??

Sometimes these things just aren't enough.  I put on e-collar on my Shepherd as a last resort to stop his crittering on rabbits.  Called off every danged thing in the world but rabbits.  The day he sailed over our 6' fence to chase a hopper was it.
 
Went out, got myself an e-collar, bada bing bada boom (no it wasn't that simple, I'm long story shorting it), rabbits are no longer interesting (On OR off the e collar).
 
Sometimes it is the best thing for the dog to endure a brief zap than to be mauled by a pissy llama.

ORIGINAL: Edie

We have 2 dogs at our dog park that have been trained using the E collar, and the other dog owners are amazed at how quickly and well these dogs have been trained.

What happens when the collar is taken off?? I have often heard dogs will only perform when the collar is on,so infact they arent as well trained as first thought.

Edie, I asked kindly that there be no flaming. Although, I assume you haven't read my entire post because I said I was going to use positive training methods and use the e-collar as little as possible.

Rolenta i read your post a few times over,and i also thought i respected your request of no flaming.You should visit dog sites from countries where electric shock collars are illegal if you really want to see flaming [8|] I hope your request didnt mean you only wanted to hear the pro's and nice stories of these collars?? I think it is also very important to hear the cons and the negative stories of how these collars have managed to wreck dogs. I implore you to look into BOTH sides of this debate,for the sake of you and most importantly your dogs.

I guess my biggest concern from your post is that your dogs havnt even demonstrated any chasing yet,and already your considering this type of aversion training.

In England it was not uncommon for dogs to get shot on a regular basis for chasing sheep or even getting to near to them,thankfully owners are very aware of this nowadays so i hope this doesnt happen often anymore. My point is,that electric shock collars are illegal in Britain,aswell as other countries, and many,many owners have managed to train their dogs not to chase animals,including llama etc without having to resort to shock tactics.
One of my dogs had a penchant for horses and nearly got stomped to death on a few occasions,she couldnt help but chase them,and we walk through horse paddocks pretty regularly,my other dog was also heading down the same path copying her behaviour.I wont bore you with how i trained her out of it,mostly long line and loads of reward games and treats,but suffice to say she doesnt blink an eye at horses anymore.

In a matter of weeks, they have learned what some owners have been trying to accomplish for a year or more. For rock solid recall and distance training, the E Collar can't be beat in my opinion.

I've always said that owners who use these things,and i'm not accusing you of this Rolenta,prefer the easy way,why bother taking the time and effort to train the dog when they can slap a shock collar on the dog and press a button.Whatever happened to training,trainers,training schools and plain old fashioned one on one time with their dogs??
And Bob by the way,my dogs have rock solid recall no matter how far away they are,yes it took alot of training,and sweat and sometimes blood and tears on my part,but after much perserverance and time all of the dogs i have ever had have had great recalls.It sounds as if you are saying shock collars are the only way to train these behaviours?

Rolenta i wont comment on your thread anymore.All i ask is that you research  both the pro's AND cons,this will be the only way you will be able to make an informed decision.

First of all, once the dog is trained, the collar is not needed anymore. This training usually  takes a matter of weeks, instead of months and months with other methods and possibly  getting iffy results . Some people consider clickers as taking the easy way. or treats, or prong collars, etc....    They are all tools just as an E Collar is, and if they are properly used, can train a dog reliably and quickly. If you have a dog that chases animals or cars and you need control of that  dog at a distance, you can screw around for months trying to get a good solid recall,.and in the process take the chance that the dog might be injured or killed, or you can use an E Collar and cut that time down to days or weeks. The choice is up to the owner, but I know what I would do.   Also, the dogs that are harmed by using an E Collar, are almost always used by someone that has had no training in how to use one, and doesn't care about learning the proper use. I think that this is probably pretty rare today, with the modern collars, but the owner should take a lesson or two before using the collar.   Dogs can be harmed by using any training device if it is not used properly.

Most negative information on E Collar today is spread by people that do not know how to use the collar, don't own one, and have never taken any lessons on it's proper use.  Kind of like someone  discussing the pros and cons of how to race a Nascar race car, when they  have never driven one, in my opinion.

Most negative information on E Collar today is spread by people that do not know how to use the collar, don't own one, and have never taken any lessons on it's proper use.

 
yep. The old-fashioned high level shocks used in "aversion training" is what gave ecollars a bad name, and rightly so.
 
Modern methods of using ecollars to train dogs use very low level shocks to re-direct the dog's attention. It feels kind of like a bug crawling on your arm-- unpleasant enough to motivate the dog to act to "turn it off",  but not painful.  Pops on a choke chain are much more painful and have been proven to cause serious health consequences, and yet weirdly chokers aren't illegal anywhere. 
 
 
However, we have a local franchise of the "sit means sit" located here, an organization that trains dogs using ecollars, and you can usually spot their graduates by by their robot-like behavior. These are dogs that had ecollars put on them as young puppies for basic obedience training. They are amazingly obedient, and their owners are often quite happy with them, but they don't have that joy about them that the dogs trained at a competing franchise that uses purely positive methods exhibit. Some of the ecollar graduates have come to our club and tried to do agility, but not very successfully, the dogs seem inhibited and lacking in drive.
 
So I would say that if you want or need 100% off leash reliability start with purely positive methods and finish the final proofing with an ecollar.No need to use an ecollar for most dog training. And definititely don't strap one on a puppy. Adults only.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Most negative information on E Collar today is spread by people that do not know how to use the collar, don't own one, and have never taken any lessons on it's proper use.

yep. The old-fashioned high level shocks used in "aversion training" is what gave ecollars a bad name, and rightly so.

Modern methods of using ecollars to train dogs use very low level shocks to re-direct the dog's attention. It feels kind of like a bug crawling on your arm-- unpleasant enough to motivate the dog to act to "turn it off",  but not painful.  Pops on a choke chain are much more painful and have been proven to cause serious health consequences, and yet weirdly chokers aren't illegal anywhere. 


However, we have a local franchise of the "sit means sit" located here, an organization that trains dogs using ecollars, and you can usually spot their graduates by by their robot-like behavior. These are dogs that had ecollars put on them as young puppies for basic obedience training. They are amazingly obedient, and their owners are often quite happy with them, but they don't have that joy about them that the dogs trained at a competing franchise that uses purely positive methods exhibit. Some of the ecollar graduates have come to our club and tried to do agility, but not very successfully, the dogs seem inhibited and lacking in drive.

So I would say that if you want or need 100% off leash reliability start with purely positive methods and finish the final proofing with an ecollar.No need to use an ecollar for most dog training. And definititely don't strap one on a puppy. Adults only.

I have to agree with you with regards to SMS using the E Collar for basic obediance  training on a young dog.  I think you can get good results using  conventional methods. I think for certain problems like distance recall, distance training, the E Collar is a good way to go.  That is the only thing I use it for with my dog. 

I don't know if brookcove is still reading this thread, but Edie, maybe you can comment. What's the fencing situation like on your average cattle or sheep farm in the UK? I know that here in TX, you can have literally hundreds of miles of fenceline- and the vast majority of it is going to be barbwire and not in the least dog proof. With goat production on the rise, more people *are* going to woven wire/ field mesh, but most folks I know wth large acreage aren't using cattle panels for much beyond close in stuff- the 4" mesh ones are pricy ($2/foot, I believe I was quoted) compared to wire ($0.25/foot? It's not much.)- and even the field mesh isn't always dog proof, since people will use that for 3' and two strands of barb or hotwire on top. With a fence that doesn't keep dogs out, a beef market at an all time high, and (in many rural areas that are being encroached on by suburbia) an increasing number of roaming pets (whose owners think that country living = Phideaux can roam to his heart's content! Just like Ole Yeller!), farmers are a LOT less tolerent of dogs bothering cattle. I'm glad people in the UK don't let their dogs bother livestock, but I think you've also got significantly less livestock to bother! 

I don't live on a farm with Llamas and a big dog, but can you just have him fenced, or somehow keep them apart? My inlaws have a ranch and cattle with dogs and they and other people with ranch dogs don't use a shock collar.  I know dogs can be trained for many, many things. Especially Border Collies. I would hope there would be another way.

I know dogs can be trained for many, many things. Especially Border Collies. I would hope there would be another way.

 
People talk about e-collars like the dog is absolutely positively going to die if one is used.  Yes, dogs can be trained for many things, but consider the fact that rolenta's dogs aren't itty bitty pups who will learn to stick close by at an early age.  They're aready grown, and it's not the same as with a baby who is willing to follow you everywhere.

Plus, she's got a Shiba Inu and a Chow mix....breeds definitely NOT known for their reliable recalls, eagerness to listen and please, and trainability.  I believe that she truly is only looking out for the safety of her dogs, taking into consideration their breeds, their temperaments, and the seriousness of the consequences should just using a recall or a long line fail.

The boundary fencing at my old place was seven-wire smooth high tensile. Definitely not dog proof. My sheep roam freely for most of the day here - literally no fence between house and sheep. The sheep are in fact hanging out under the shade trees in my backyard right now. During the dry season I have to use every scrap of grass I have here, including lawns! Probably the same reason grazes on the western ranges are so large.

Dog kills are a pretty big consideration for a farmer with smaller livestock. That's why livestock guardians are used - they are far more effective than fencing at deterring predators. The lllamas alarm me in this situation because as I said, they are not like my livestock guardian dogs, who give a chasing dog plenty of warning and even can distinguish between a dog that's not really serious and a dog that's seriously looking for dinner. Llamas kill first, ask questions later. Donkeys are somewhere between.

You'll want to be able to give the dogs their own area so they are not having to worry about getting chased or restraining their desire to chase, conversely. You can get about 350 feet of 35" high field fencing for about $130, which is plenty high enough to discourage interaction between house residents and farm animals. Set it on posts that are set at 48" high and you'll have room to put an electric wire or barbed wire strand, or two, to discourage the taller animals from challenging the fence.

Even cheaper is high tensile, which can be set at two to three inch intervals for the first few feet up, and electrified. If you are looking at enclosing runs of fencing more than a few hundred feet long, that's the way to go. It might even be cheaper to look into doing this, than the expensive collars and professional training. It costs about $300 to do 1000 feet of eight-strand high tensile, plus the fence charger, which you'll need anyway no matter what you decide to do, I suspect.

In England it was not uncommon for dogs to get shot on a regular basis for chasing sheep or even getting to near to them,thankfully owners are very aware of this nowadays so i hope this doesnt happen often anymore

Last year, right here in Ohio,,,right behind where I live (almost my own back yard) was a Sharpei that got shot by the farmer when  he came into his farm yard,,,didn't even chase his animals...just walked in the yard and the farmer shot him dead because he was allowed to...stating that dog bother his farm animals.   So it DOES happen...and not just in England...but all over the world.

You can not be too careful with your dog. Its great to have a instant and quick recall with your dog...but again,, unfortunately we live in the real world. Not all dog do come back instantly...and worse yet..some don't hear you at all after they get excited.  Maybe that means you failed as a trainer...but why take your dogs life in your hands when you can do something about it?   Its great for those that put their blood, sweat and tears into this training if they chose to do so...but believe me,, It doesn't mean you love your dog any more than the person that is not doing it your way, or that they are less of a pet parent.  Again,,,its people that have not used the collar that think its so bad. It is NOT bad,, its a wonderful tool if needed. I did not train Bubblegum with a collar,,but she does have one.  It enables me to walk her down the street and not worry about her pulling me to see something she just has to see.  It enables me to let her do a lot of things we would not do without it....but it does'nt mean that I used it all the time...or even some of the time. It means I'm ready if I do need it!