Nice.....

To me, vaccines are like wearing a seatbelt in a car, or a helmet on a bike/motorbike/horse. There are some rare occasions where doing "the right thing" can actually cause problems. Wearing a seatbelt can trap you in a car, helmets can get caught on things and choke you, and vaccines can cause a bad reaction. But 99 times out of 100, those things will protect you, and in the case of vaccines, will also protect those around you.

Yes, vaccines are essentially pumping strange foreign substances into your body. But they're also using your body's own immune system in a very natural way to keep you protected. It's like they're taking the immune system to a zoo, showing a dangerous animal safely behind bars (as the body is exposed to the disease, but in a sort of de-activated form that won't cause illness), and is like, "That stuff can kill you, you need to protect against it!" So then when you're actually faced with the Bad Guy, it's no problem, because you're prepared and have the tools you need to fight back.

In the old days, people with exceptionally strong immune systems immunized themselves to diseases - they were exposed to the diseases but were strong enough to live through them and so developed resistance/immunity to them. Which was awesome, except that everyone without that same immune system strength tended to become horribly ill and die. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and all that. While I can see the sort of Darwinian logic to eliminating vaccines so that only the strong survive and propagate... I think that violates pretty much all of our societal norms, and is seriously morally questionable. 

I personally feel like we are privileged to live in an affluent and sanitary enough society where things like disease outbreaks that could have been prevented by vaccinations are ancient history. If you look at many developing countries, not only do many of the citizens not have enough money to purchase basic vaccinations, their living conditions are so sub-standard that diseases are given ample opportunity to thrive and spread. (Things like breeding places for mosquitos, rats and mice running around and potentially infected, piles of warm stinky trash for bacteria to grow in....)

Another thing to consider is that each time a person "catches" a disease, they serve as a host that allows the disease to mutate and change such that the vaccinations might be less effective. So, essentially, every time you catch a disease that you could have been vaccinated against, you are undermining the preventive measures that everyone else took. It's like driving 50 miles above the speed limit - yes, the person primarily at risk is yourself, but you're also endangering everyone around you.

To me personally, I feel like refusing basic vaccinations is a sort of "ostrich with its head in the sand" type mentality - if you can't see the immediate risks, then they must not be a big deal, and therefore aren't worth the minimal risks associated with prevention, right?

I wonder if those of you considering not vaccinating your children would also consider not vaccinating your animals?

I'm all for spreading out vaccinations, thoroughly researching them beforehand, and not over-doing it to go out and get every vaccine known to man... but as a seatbelt-fastening, helmet-wearing, conscientious adult, I also feel a responsibility to vaccinate myself and those under my care.

JMO  

glenmar

Chicken pox...let me tell you about chicken pox and the after effects of that little harmless illness.

Me me me!

I always thought that you get chicken pox as a kid and then you are immune to it and don't get it again, and you don't get shingles either.

I have met three people recently who all had CP as kids and all had Shingles as adults.  One was blind for over a month, her sight and sensitivity to light only got better gradually over the next several months.  She was told by her doctor she was lucky to get her sight back fully, that some people take YEARS to overcome the effects of it and some live with those effects for life.

Another thing she was told... is that when you have chicken pox as a kid it never truly goes away.  It stays in your system and when you get older and your immune system is down for some reason, it can come back worse - as shingles.  That's very simplified, but that's the essence of it.  And there's me thinking I knew about chicken pox...  I am going to have to look this up now.

Cita

It's like they're taking the immune system to a zoo, showing a dangerous animal safely behind bars (as the body is exposed to the disease, but in a sort of de-activated form that won't cause illness), and is like, "That stuff can kill you, you need to protect against it!"

Just wanted to say I love this analogy.  Cute  

Chuffy

I have met three people recently who all had CP as kids and all had Shingles as adults.

I also know someone who came close to losing his sight recently due to shingles and my FIL had a very bad case of it too. They have a vaccine for shingles, but I think it's usually only given to those 60 and over.

But guys...getting the chicken pox vaccine doesn't protect you from shingles. You can get it FROM the vaccine! Heck, you can get chicken pox itself from the vaccine! And I'm sorry, but my 9 year old cousin's permanent skin condition (I can't remember what it's called) and my cousin's 5 year old's horrible eczema, both of which appeared RIGHT AFTER they were vax'd for chicken pox, and both of whom's doctors have admitted were probably caused by the vaccine, have totally convinced me to avoid it. Maybe it's just some sensitivity my family has...all the more reason not to vax my own kids for it.

And to answer Courtney's question, yep! I feel exactly the same about vaccines for dogs (and cats). Pick and choose which they get, space them out, don't re-vaccinate if it's not necessary... Same thing I'll do for my kids.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/default.htm<\p>

http://www.emedicine.com/MED/topic2361.htm<\p>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18227713?ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum<\p>

Glenda, what you said in regards to measles and mumps is absolutely correct.<\p>

ottoluv

I love how you say you haven't decided either way yet you said above you are totally convinced to avoid it.

*Edited, rude*. I'm pretty darn sure I won't vaccinate against chicken pox, and that's the only one I'm sure about. I will be doing much more research about the others, all of them from polio to MMR...

Sometimes bad things happen and there isn't a reason? Wow. Do you actually believe that? Illnesses just appear out of nowhere? There's always a reason, whether it's genetics, immune problems, environment, chemicals, or something else..there's gotta be a cause.

So wait, are you saying people vax'd against chickenpox can't get shingles later on? I'm honestly asking. I thought it was pretty common.

And seriously Kelly, I know you went to school for a million years (but I don't automatically value formal education more than informal..), *Edited, rude*.*edited referencing edited text*. I'm well aware that I don't know everything, and I sure don't need to be condescended.

And it kind of amuses me that you admonish me about learning things on the internet, and then post links I've learned said things from...

Mod's note:

Bickering needs to stop.  Please take it to PM if anyone feels the need to continue.

I really like the seatbelt analogy.  My husband NEVER wore a seatbelt.  He was on his way to work one morning, driving a Dodge Caravan when a little Escort ran a stop sign and hit him in the "sweet spot" and caused the van to roll, skid upside down on that little rain gutter thing, and then the infamous popping tailgate door popped open, forcing him back on his wheels.  For some reason, he'd buckled up that day.  This was years ago and in the deep south where he didn't HAVE to, but something made him buckle that day.  Thankfully, or he'd have been dead.

I just remembered that when my sons were in grade school there was a big measles outbreak.  Mostly in the colleges, but regardless the medical community was very concerned and I was amongst the first to call my docs office and set my boys up to be revaccinated.  I don't recall the details, but it seems that the original MMR had provided limited time immunity.  One of my boys couldn't have one component of the MMR, don't remember WHICH, but as I recall oldest DS had an allergic reaction so that portion was left out from then on.

I am the last person to blindly follow Dr's advice.  I am an "educated consumer" and I am willing to challenge and ask why.  If the explanation makes sense to me, fine.  If not, I'll ask more questions until it does, or decide against.  I'm certainly not militant with my Doc, but as a patient, I have to take some responsibility for my own health, and unfortunately, docs are so jam packed and busy that they don't have the time to spend with patients, or with continueing ed, or even keeping up on things, that they once had.

I suspect that most of the folks who are on the fence or against vaccines are the younger ones who never HAD mumps, never had measles, never had chicken pox.  And the reason for that is likely that you were VACCINATED.  Us old folks didn't have that option, and by golly, when it comes to protecting your kids against something that can be avoided, well, in my mind there is just no question.  I know measles doesn't sound like a gawd awful thing to deal with, but it sure can be, and in young people, it can be devastating.  My bout with measles was far from pleasant, mumps were gawd awful and chicken pox, even a mild case were dreadful.  I surely didn't wish any of that on my kids.

chelsea_b

Sometimes bad things happen and there isn't a reason? Wow. Do you actually believe that?

Umm.  Yes, Chelsea.  Sometimes bad things happen and there isn't a reason or a cause.  Ever see one of those T-shirts that say "Sh*t Happens?"  Sometimes the sh*t just comes down by the bucketful and there's no cause .... nothing at all that you can point to and say "well, this happened because that happened" ... it just happens, and you just have to deal with it as best you can when it does.  That's true for medical situations and every other situation.  If you're lucky, it won't happen too often.

Joyce

chelsea_b

Sometimes bad things happen and there isn't a reason? Wow. Do you actually believe that? Illnesses just appear out of nowhere? There's always a reason, whether it's genetics, immune problems, environment, chemicals, or something else..there's gotta be a cause.

Know anyone who has seizures?  DH has grand mal seizures and we're told the majority of seizures are idiopathic, meaning there is no known or obvious cause.  He has had bloodwork, MRI, CT scans, EEG, repeated visits to the ER and a neurologist, no one in his family has ever had a seizure, and he is free from other conditions that also cause seizures.  Maybe there IS a reason out there somewhere but if it's impossible to narrow down, then to me that's as good as not having a reason.  He is still treated to prevent seizures because they put him and others at risk.  His first two seizures happened in the shower.  Thankfully he didn't hit his head in such a way he could have been seriously hurt.  Right now we know no reason for his seizures, but he takes medication to prevent them and will continue to do so as long as the risks of not being treated in favor of waiting for some cause to magically appear outweigh the side effects (his current meds lead to osteoporosis so he is switching to a new drug).

 There is a possibility that it happens for a reason, but we don't know what that reason is?  I mean, is it not arrogant to assume taht just because we don't KNOW the reason, there IS no reason?  No?

Devil's Advocate, signing off....

Chuffy

 There is a possibility that it happens for a reason, but we don't know what that reason is?  I mean, is it not arrogant to assume taht just because we don't KNOW the reason, there IS no reason?  No?

Devil's Advocate, signing off....

Exactly, like I said, if there's no way of determining the reason, then there might as well not be one.  DH could refuse treatment in favor of waiting for a reason to become apparent, but doing so puts him and others at great risk.  I'm sure there's always a reason, but that doesn't mean we are capable of finding it.  So to me it's really a pointless distinction, whether or not there IS a reason.  I'd rather look at risks of treatment vs. risks of not doing anything (like risks of vaccinating vs risks of not vaccinating...I don't really care if there is a reason for measles coming into existence because as long as it DOES in fact exists, there are risks).  In his case, the risk of not doing anything in favor of finding a reason (which I doubt will ever be found) is far greater than possible risks of treatment.