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I think you need to go talk to a trainer. If your dog still isn't trained after two years you're clearly not doing it right.
And they aren't "food bribes". It's a reward. The dog doesn't see the treat or even know it exists before obeying.
 

My 2 have totally different walking styles. Trixie is a fast walker as am I. Molly prances behind, so I have one in front and one in back. Most of the time, dh or one of the kids comes so they hold a leash.
I do enjoy walking them though, I think I just love that they can get out and about with out being confined to the yard. Every night after supper they run to their leashes, run to me, make sure I look at them and run to their leashes again. There are some nights, I am sooo tired, but when I see how hopeful and happy they are thinking it's walk time, I get off my butt and leash them up. Once I'm out the door I am glad I did it.
There is one spot they love to stop and sniff, I let them for a minute and then tell them "Let's go" and we can walk the rest of the way at a decent clip.
I can honestly say I enjoy most of the training, the simple stuff like sit, lay , paw, come etc.... But my dogs were easy to train in those things. I dropped the ball on training them to not get so excited when company comes, Trixie especially is like a spaz, she needs to be acknowledged and won't stop being a pest until they do.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I think you need to go talk to a trainer. If your dog still isn't trained after two years you're clearly not doing it right.
And they aren't "food bribes". It's a reward. The dog doesn't see the treat or even know it exists before obeying.

Unless you have hounds....they always know when you're carrying.  []
 
ETA:  Tamara, there are times when I can't do the walking- like yesterday when my knee was super messed up from hockey.  But 90% of the time I actually love the walks, even in this 90* weather.  It gives me time to see what's out there as far as plant life and such.  I also give myself and Xerxes alot of variety on our walks-we'll walk a different way, or follow a different path, or keep going when we normall would have turned left.  It's also interesting to stop and talk with some of the people out there. 
 
 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I think you need to go talk to a trainer. If your dog still isn't trained after two years you're clearly not doing it right.

So once dogs are trained they never need reminders? Do your dogs walk perfectly on the leash every time?

And they aren't "food bribes". It's a reward. The dog doesn't see the treat or even know it exists before obeying.

LOL! They can smell whether I have the treats or not. I still don't see how it's not a bribe for doing what I want.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


ETA:  Tamara, there are times when I can't do the walking- like yesterday when my knee was super messed up from hockey.  But 90% of the time I actually love the walks, even in this 90* weather.  It gives me time to see what's out there as far as plant life and such.  I also give myself and Xerxes alot of variety on our walks-we'll walk a different way, or follow a different path, or keep going when we normall would have turned left.  It's also interesting to stop and talk with some of the people out there. 

The thing is, I do like walking, but not walking the dogs. I find that I can't just get lost in nature and enjoy myself because I have to be paying attention to what they're doing. It feels like a chore, rather than something fun...

Well, walks used to not be enjoyable with my husky so I can relate. She will sniff, pull and pee on everything if I let her (and this is putting it nicely! Try having a 55 lb freight train yanking on your arm!). Eventually I just got sick of it because I enjoy walking and was fed up with her calling the shots (this is what your dogs are doing). So one day I just said forget it. We are doing this my way no matter how much you fight. I got a choke chain (yes, I know people don't like these) and started training her to heel on walks. I walked at a brisk pace and would not allow her to sniff, pull, etc. I know you are doing this and maybe it's harder with small dogs but I personally think that it's all in the attitude. You have to be 100% confident that you are calling the shots.
 
For rewards I would just release her with praise. I would still continue to walk at my brisk pace and she could sniff, etc but she had from one end of the lead to the other to be in front or back of me. I wasn't stopping for nothing. When I would get so that the leash was tight, I'd just go "let's go!" and give her a little tug. She'd shoot up to the end of the leash and we'd rinse/repeat. Every 5 mins or so, I'd put her back in heel for 5 mins then release again. Now she's a great walker and doesn't pull at all. She knows exactly how long that leash is and doesn't criss cross in front of me either.
 
Teaching heel with the puppy has helped tremendously as well. The other thing that has helped is letting them know that they have to pay attention to me on walks. I did this by treating/praising them whenever they looked at me. Now they pay attention really well.
 
The brattiness while taking treats is also a training issue. You need to work on "easy" or "nice" when they aren't together and in a quiet setting, then gradually work in the excitment of multiple dogs on a walk w/treats.

P.S. one of my fav. pass times is to spend time hiking in the woods with my dogs. I know it can be really frustrating but you can work the problems out. Getting frustrated doesn't help you or the dogs. You are probably going to have to work on them one on one for a while.

ORIGINAL: Jewlieee

Well, walks used to not be enjoyable with my husky so I can relate. She will sniff, pull and pee on everything if I let her (and this is putting it nicely! Try having a 55 lb freight train yanking on your arm!). Eventually I just got sick of it because I enjoy walking and was fed up with her calling the shots (this is what your dogs are doing). So one day I just said forget it. We are doing this my way no matter how much you fight. I got a choke chain (yes, I know people don't like these) and started training her to heel on walks. I walked at a brisk pace and would not allow her to sniff, pull, etc. I know you are doing this and maybe it's harder with small dogs but I personally think that it's all in the attitude. You have to be 100% confident that you are calling the shots.

For rewards I would just release her with praise. I would still continue to walk at my brisk pace and she could sniff, etc but she had from one end of the lead to the other to be in front or back of me. I wasn't stopping for nothing. When I would get so that the leash was tight, I'd just go "let's go!" and give her a little tug. She'd shoot up to the end of the leash and we'd rinse/repeat. Every 5 mins or so, I'd put her back in heel for 5 mins then release again. Now she's a great walker and doesn't pull at all. She knows exactly how long that leash is and doesn't criss cross in front of me either.

Teaching heel with the puppy has helped tremendously as well. The other thing that has helped is letting them know that they have to pay attention to me on walks. I did this by treating/praising them whenever they looked at me. Now they pay attention really well.

The brattiness while taking treats is also a training issue. You need to work on "easy" or "nice" when they aren't together and in a quiet setting, then gradually work in the excitment of multiple dogs on a walk w/treats.

Thank you for your post Jewlieee. [] It's so much more helpful than a curt and accusatory "you're not doing it right". It sounds like we have the same attitude with the walks. I don't stop for sniffing or any of that stuff either. If they lag behind trying to stop I keep walking and say "let's go".

As far as walking Gingerbread, I wonder if I'm being too nit picky. [8|] He NEVER hits the end of the leash running or pulls hard. I stop when I feel and ever so slight pressure on the leash. That's something I forgot to mention too. Sometimes it's hard to even tell if he actually pulled on the leash because when I say slight pressure I mean very slight and he slows down instantly. That's what bugs me the most is having to 100% focus to make sure I'm getting it right. [&o] I usually change directions if I feel like he's not paying attention at all to where I'm at. Walking Fudge is a whole different story because he's a puppy so he wants to just gallop around in circles and act crazy. Luckily he really HATES having to turn around and go the direction he just came from, so that's working really well for teaching him not to pull. But like I said, I find the whole training process to be a chore...

As far as the working on taking treats nicely, any ideas how?

Edited to add, I do walk them separately. The few times I've tried to walk them together it was a tangly mess. Gingerbread walked nicely, but Fudge was all over the place. So we're definitely not at the point of walking them together yet.

I use to really dread walking my girls.  Especially my over-the-top critter driven pointer.  I tried all sorts of training tactics to get her to walk nicely with me. When I walked her together with my setter, her critter craziness would set off my setter, too and it was terrible.

 Finally, after being yanked and pulled to the point of desparation, I bought a head collar that works extremely well.  I just put that collar on, don't talk to her, don't look at her and WALK!  She has no choice but to walk with me.  It's wonderful.  We are starting to walk without the head collar once in a while and she's getting conditioned to think, "We are on a walk.  I'd better just walk and forget about the critters." 

My setter, Trudy walks nicely on the leash especially when you make it clear that she is expected to behave and not scout for birds.

I've been fostering another black and white English setter with pretty nice leash manners and I walk all three of them together.  They are super together and people love to stop and ask me about them.  When Gracie walks in the middle, they look like a pointer with E. Setter book ends. []

I don't mind a tiny tug here and there so in my book you are probably being a bit too picky. Heeling is one thing but loose leash walking is another. I don't expect perfection with loose leash walking. Remember, the point is for both of you to enjoy the walks, not stress over them [] When you get to a point where you can walk without tripping over leashes or getting your arm yanked off, you are doing good imo.
 
Maybe you have been trying to train them so hard that the tiniest things get you frustrated? Take a breather, put on some head phones and enjoy yourself.
 
For walking both of my dogs together, I use a carabener to tie their leashes together. The puppy has learned that my husky will "take him down" so to speak if he gets in her way too much. So they now walk nicely and in line with each other when together.  Really though, it sounds like Fudge needs to learn to heel before you let him loose leash walk.
 
As far as taking treats nicely goes, you just don't give it to them if they look like they are going to snap. Wait them out and say "niiiicccceeee" and slowly move your hand toward their face. If they leap up and make a grab, you take it away saying "ah ah" sharply. They'll get the idea soon enough.

I'm a dog-walker at the shelter and recently I felt the exact same as you.  It just was not enjoyable anymore, not at all.  Every second of the walk I was having to watch for anything that would distract or stimulate the dog, having to give verbal or light physical corrections ever 2 seconds or the dogs would literally walk all over me.  Ugh.  Lately, I've been spending far more time in the runs doing training for leash manners than walking.  My recent experiences have lead me to believe that the best training for proper walking and heeling happens off-lead before the dog even starts going out on a walk.  I've been working with some puppies lately and what we do is go in a large dog run, I give them a few minutes to get their willies out - just run around a bit, poop, bark at the other dogs - and once they start paying more attention to me, I show them that I have treats and if they behave appropriately, they will instantly get one.  To do heels, I just start moving forward and if the dog follows just behind or right at my side and glances up at me, I instantly put a treat in the side of it's mouth.  Sometimes we'll go about 20 feet (the dog has earned like 5 treats or so) and then the dog will step ahead and lose focus.  I either stop and wait for the dog to step back and look at me, or I turn another direction and reward as soon as I feel them at my side again.  I feel that if a dog doesn't have the basic foundations for leash manners and heeling, introducing the leash right away just creates a lot more resistance and pulling.  Basically, I use the training in the runs to establish the fact that 1) I have treats and 2) Dog will get them if he follows along nicely and pays attention to the handler.  I don't expect them to be anywhere NEAR mastering the walk or heel before going on the leash, but I want then to understand the concept of working for the reward and paying attention to me.  If the second I introduce the leash it's pull pull pull, I can't ever redirect their attention b/c there's no basis for them wanting to see what I have to offer and what I'm asking them to do.

The food is not really a bribe, it's a reward.  With a bribe, you either give or take something away, and the other person/dog knows this in advanced.  When using treats for walking, you don't show the dog the treat and then give it or take it away.  Reinforcing the correct behavior should happen instantly, without the dog waiting around for a treat or even taking more than half a second to swallow it and keep moving on.  It is more difficult (for me at least) with smaller dogs because timing is key and they are way down on the ground.  Some people use some kind of spoon, but I just try to do what I normally do more hunched over.  Also, I've found that puppies seem to make eye contact with me more naturally if I'm bending down a bit, rather than them having to almost stop and be in a sit in order to look up and see me.  Also, when delivering the treat, I've found it faster and more effective to put the treat into the side of the dog's mouth, especially for nippy puppies and grabby dogs.  If you offer the treat, but the dog is the one taking it, then it's reinforcing the dog being grabby.  For some reason, going in sideways seems to take them more by surprise and I can set the treat inside the dog's mouth, not allow the dog to take it from me or get nipped hard trying to put it on his tongue.  If you cannot deliver the treat quickly without major pauses in the walking, the dog will have a hard time associating the treat with the walking behavior.

I was doing this the other day with a lab puppy, out in the parking lot on a leash (I didn't get to work in a run first b/c they were all taken).  Once I got the timing down and figured out how to deliver the treat without the dog taking it, I was astounded at how quickly the puppy improved.  We did exactly what you said, went along and as soon as he pulled or lost focused, I turned around and when he returned to me, I rewarded.  After about 15 minutes, we were going pretty far before having to turn around.

I have seen many dogs that once trained, will walk perfectly everytime without reinforcement.  It's sort of like once a kid is potty trained to consistently use the potty and not wet the bed or wear a diaper, you don't have to keep giving rewards.  Adults don't need to be reminded or reinforced how to use a toilet.

Even when walking the three together, they are not absolutely perfect.  They don't yank and they stay together enough so that, as long as I don't let go of the handle, they are comfortable for me to walk. The only time I will stop my general pace is when one has to pee.  Then we all stop and wait.   I usually twist the leashes a couple of times together so that they are a loose unit.  

My dog  loves going outside and I look at walking her as "her time".  She very rarely pulls, and  I let her sniff her way along, because that is probably the high point of her day. Why give her a hard time about enjoying herself.  I put my Ipod on and listen to music or a podcast and relax.  If we have to make time and get somewhere, I just say, "Smokey ,let's go" and she walks right beside me as we move quickly along. 

It's definitely a relief to hear I'm not the only one who has found walking to be a chore. It would be sooo much easier if I could just let them do whatever, but of course that's a horrible idea with a dog's pack instincts.