Would this make you uncomfortable?

chelsea_b

Isn't prong supposed to be self-correcting? You're not supposed to yank a dog on a prong, are you?

You don't YANK on it, but depending on whether it's on a dead or live ring or whether the ring is in the front or the back, many people will use the prong for directional corrections.  This is typically done not in any basic type of training, but for something like perfecting the heel/fuss so the dog is not lagging or forging by one step.

If you say you use prongs and use corrections, that doesn't automatically mean you yank.  As you say, it's a self-correcting device but that's still a type of correction. 

Prongs have their uses but in a basic obedience class? sorry no use in that situation is appropriate. Also I've never encountered a training facility that wasn't more than happy to let people audit one or even more entire classes before signing up.

I'm with mudpuppy. Who would use a prong for an obidience class unless absolutely necessary????? They could just let people only see one class but I mean who could steal that many techniques from one class? Come on!!!

 Third red flag - non-refundable.  So, if you get in there, and you are uncomfortable with the method, you are made to feel that you have to continue???  I don't even cash the checks till week 2, and they can opt out before the class is over.  I've never been stiffed by a prospective student coming to audit a class session, and the number of people who have asked for refunds I can count on one hand it happens so rarely.  Most of the time, when they do, it's because of a changed work schedule, and most of them just change to a different class at a later date.

It matters a lot what kind of dog you have, too.  Most scent hounds or retrievers, for example, wouldn't probably care about a prong one way or another.  But, my Aussie would be horrified.  I find the herders a bit more sensitive to pain.  JMHO

I actually understand why they wouldn't want you to watch.

 1.)  For all they know you could be PETA

2.)  You could just want to sit in and get free advice and not sign up for the class (it happens)

3.)  You could be another training facility trying to get "dirt" or "ideas" and take credit for them.

4.)  You could be a person of the media who hates Sch.

5.)  Liability--if someone's dog gets off the leash and decides to go for you (for whatever reason)

6.)  Their insurance doesn't cover ppl who don't sign up for classes and therefore sign a liability waiver. 

 As far as the prong collar- I think they are excellent training devices for the right dogs, and way more humane than choke collars (they can't get too tight thus causing tracheal damage).

Just some things to consider, they might not be bad at all!

when screening for a training facility keep in mind that some people do actually still train dogs by the collar-pop method. On prongs or chokers. Pop the dog with the prong every time he moves out of heel position. After a thousand painful yanks the dog is glued to the handler's side. Then he gets "praised" as a reward. Yank the dog's head up and shove the butt down. After twenty painful experiences the dog is hastily slamming his butt to the ground when he hears the word "sit". And then he gets "praised" as a reward. "Praise" soon signals to the dog he successfully avoided pain. I would be very suspicious of any trainer who advertised they used "positive reinforcement" AND corrections and suggest a prong without seeing the dog- very likely they use some variant of this outdated training methodology. Mind you, it works, you can get well-trained obedient dogs coming out of the facility. But it's slow, it inhibits future learning, and some dogs will crumble or quit under such treatment.

mudpuppy

"Praise" soon signals to the dog he successfully avoided pain. 

By the same logic Food Treats soon signals to the dog he successfully avoided anguish by withholding a treat when the dog does not offer the requested behavior.

Yes, this scenerio would make me very uncomfortable.  I agree that the prong is far more humane than a choker, however, I don't agree with STARTING with a prong just for general training, and I wouldn't pay for a class if I couldn't see the whole thing first.  I want to know what I'm getting.  This would be like buying a new car without seeing the whole thing.....maybe just the front end of the interior.  And then after I pay my non-refundable money I discover that the rest of the car is ugly, or it doesn't fill my needs........

And I can't for the life of me see how withholding a treat from a dog who isn't starving creates anguish.  Sigh.

As far as the time thing, I'd be very curious why they have that rule.  At the club I go to most frequently, we let people come and watch, sometimes even bring the dog for an eval.  During the first summer agility session a friend of mine was in town and the trainer let her come and even bring her dog and do a few runs with her (she had taken agility before).  Now lately there has been this one lady that's coming to "try" and awful lot of classes with an awful lot of dogs so the owner has to tell her it's not a free for all drop in.  But this is a case by case thing, we'd never limit audits to 15 minutes for everyone.  Generally people are given more time than they often deserve.  Heck, once I went out and gave a little girl an hour and a half demo/lesson with my dog and her dog to find out what class she wanted to take (her birthday present was going to be taking classes with her dog).

Like I said, our Schutzhund/German Shepherd club also allows people to come and watch.  You can also join as an "open" member which means you pay a smaller annual fee (for insurance) and pay per session fees for training.  This is for people who want to "try" more than just watching, or can't make every session and thus it's too expensive to be a full member.  We also invite other trainers and helpers to evaluate our members and trainers.  Last time I went we had a couple who has trained rings sport dogs and sets up training and simulations for police k9s come and look at our dogs.  I think it's valuable to have feedback not only from prospective members, but other trainers and competitors.