The needs & capabilities of present and future dogs

I have two very different breeds. Hound and a working/farm style breed. We are okay with it.

Life in the USA for dogs is usually...on lead. Both could go to dog parks but they dont for my own reasons. Both enjoy our yard and occasional outings with us. Both present viable opportunties to pursue dog activities if I wanted to. One requires considerably less grooming than the other and is a lot more portable and smaller.

But really both meet the non negotiables with us...great with kids, safe around other animals and dogs, Those are must haves, here.

In our pack we have on off leasher and one on leasher.

Rory is amazing off lead with distractions. Even other dogs around she knows not to run up to them and to "stay close". Primo on the other hand is a total brat and he is only allowed off leash if I am sure no other dogs will be around adn I can see for miles.....like the beach at 6 a.m which is very common for us.

He dosnt seem to mind. Not to mention Rory is higher in the heirachy of our pack by nature and he is fine with that too. She sleeps in bed with me, he is on the floor on his own bed right next to us. When walked seperatlely she gets walked first. When let off leash she gets to go first and he ONLY gets to go if he is calm and composed but he is typically still called back way before her and leashed.

Its not favoritism, its a healthy pack and if I didnt help reinforce her place he would try to vye for position and THAT is where problems start. DH hates it and disnt understand so when I was out of town for a week he thought he'd do a experiment and make the dogs equal. BAD idea. Primo tried pushing Rory off her own bed, he tried stealing her bones (where if I was there he'd never be alllowed off his bed until she was done) and it was a mess.

Ok, I have anything BUT a "normal" pack.  Four dogs of four entirely different breeds/temperaments.  Just on basic principle, my dogs are ONLY off-leash in my own yard.  That's how it is, that's how it will always be and even if I were in the UK (remember my husband's a Scot - that's not far-fetched) they would still be leashed just because that's how it will always be.  All it takes is one unexpected distraction and one automobile that's a bit unexpected and tragedy can happen.  That's just how it is for me and in the past I was **all about** wanting my dogs to be off leash whenever possible.  As I've aged I've changed my mind after seeing tragedy.

However -- I have a similar but different thing.  Billy hasn't been able to do the pet therapy since the iMHA because he can't ever have vaccines again and up til now he's been still too immune-suppressed for me to feel comfortable taking him into an environment where I know kids are sick, adults may be sick (nursing homes, etc.)

Luna and Kee both do Give Kids the World -- Billy hasn't been able to.  And frankly, that's tragic for HIM. 

So I've gone out of my way (in a BIG way) to make sure Billy has other opportunities for socialization, so that HE gets to 'go' to other places they don't go.  "Fairness"??  Is it a human concept?  I don't know, but I *do* know that this has kept Billy happy.  He hasn't suffered mentally at all. 

 Now, do I *take* him where he has to SEE the other two?  No.  I couldn't but I would NOT even if I could. 

 Your point is a very valid one ... I would not taunt one dog with what another can do and they can't.

I very likely would do exactly what you are thinking -- I'd wait.  On one paw we're thinking of things vastly different, but on another -- I'm totally in agreement with you that if these things are integral to how you live your life, and you wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with another dog -- then fine.

However, I would also tell you that "freedom" can be vastly over-rated.  We humans can think that a dog would be so so so UN-happy to "have to be leashed" (we think that in the same terms we might think about incarceration in the Tower of London for the next 50 years??) and you know what?  It's truly NOT true. 

What they really truly want is to **be with us**.  They want to go places with us, do things with us, accompany us, and be a part of the things we do.  That sort of thing is honestly way way more valuable to most dogs than running off-leash. 

I don't mean that unkindly -- and I realize that some dogs have a high need for intense exercise -- but a leashed dog really isn't suffering as long as they are spending quality time with their humans.  It's that contact that makes their light shine.  They do adapt -- and as Ben ages that perceived need to be 'loose' for him will also diminish.  I'd be willing to bet that his trips with you to the pub or for your evening walk are more important simply being *with* you than running off leash.

calliecritturs

.. I would not taunt one dog with what another can do and they can't.

LOL, its not a taunt, its a simple amtter that the obediant dog gets more freedom.

If you had two kids, one with good grades and one with bad would you hold the good grade kid back from doing things so as not to hurt the other's feelings?

I surely hope not. When Primo is let off leash, dosnt respond and I walk over to retrieve him should I leash Rory too because Primo disobeyed?

Primo know exactly why he is being leashed.

In dog packs lower members are given less priveleges then the others, ie not getting to eat and things of that nature.

Obviously you know I'm not some dog nazi who is mean to my dogs but anything less would be anthromorphizing a bit dontcha think?

I have dogs of different types, and we also have rules for different dogs. 

Here, little dogs are allowed on the furniture, the big guys are not. It's never been a problem and I don't think they get 'jealous'. They like consistency, and as it's the way it's always been, they don't have a problem with it. 

Two of mine go to the dog park now and then, but that's the only place they get to be off leash.  Granted, I have dogs with fairly low exercise needs/desires, so they don't need to run full tilt anywhere.  I don't think they need to be off leash though. I do prefer to teach them to behave when off leash (so that should a leash break/door slip/etc occur, they will follow commands) but being a vet tech and seeing what can happen to off leash dogs has made it so that I will never be comfortable having my dog off leash in anything but a fenced area.

Benedict

 A lot of this is compatibility, but on the face of it, our life isn't incompatible with a hound, I just couldn't get one knowing it would have a different life to Ben.  So...am I weird? 

I don't think you're weird. I have the same issue, but kind of...opposite. I desperately want a second dog, but the reasons mostly have to do with wanting a dog I can take everywhere, and do dog activities with. A super friendly active off-leashable dog. Cherokee's not any of those things (this has nothing to do with "ideal", nor am I in any way saying Cherokee's not good enough or something..I've just spent the last 9 years with an unfriendly dog, and forget what it's like to have a friendly one..lol). But I know if I got a second dog, I'd feel way too guilty leaving Cherokee behind to do most of the stuff I want the second dog for...it's quite the conundrum...and why I don't have another dog.

that's one of my breed criteria too. No breeds known to be prone to dog aggression, no breeds where it's suggested they never be let off lead. I don't think it's weird, it's GOOD you know what fits into your lifestyle and what doesn't.

I have 2 breeds that are quite different. I think they are outstanding together though. Kaiser is my off leash boy, well behaved and extremely obedient. Kaiser has a pretty high prey drive, but i can call him off a rabbit if i need to. Wyatt, on the other hand, CANNOT be off leash. He will run in the middle of a road after a leaf, a butterfly, etc. It's too dangerous. I usually take them to a fenced in area so they can both play off leash. When i take them to the bathroom, Wyatt remains on leash and Kaiser is loose.

Wyatt is also very calm and laid back in the car, so i take him more places. Kaiser jumps back and forth between the seats, drools all over everything, and whines. Kaiser seems a little jealous when Wyatt leaves, so when i get back i take Kaiser on a walk all by himself.

While i think a more energetic breed would be a better match for Kaiser, i cannot complain about he and Wyatt. They have never so much as growled each other, and they play very well together.

I will most definitely own this breed combo in the future.

Well, as far as things they can do, my dogs are pretty different.  Jack really enjoys large crowds of people, Sally is stressed by them.  Jack *loves* the dog park and is well behaved there, Sally is not really a dog park dog.  Jack loves to swim, Sally might just wade into the water.  Plus, jack can be off leash, and Sally really cannot be trusted.  

On the other hand, Sally can go for long walks on pavement--something that Jack cannot do because of his elbow.  She also *really* enjoys long hikes, something that Jack also will never be able to do.  Sally is an excellent house dog--she has the run of the house when we are home and we know that she won't put herself in danger by eating weird stuff, harass the cats, etc.  Sally does not need her crate anymore and can be confined to the bedroom with out issue--I'm beginning to wonder of Jack will never not need a crate.  Sally is much better mannered in the car--Jack is all over the place and she sits in one spot quietly, if I need to run in to pay for gas or something I don't have to tether her to the seat like I do Jack--she just waits quietly for me to return.  Sally has a much more pronounced "off" button--she can lay around with you all morning quietly and then be ready to go wherever you want--Jack tends to pace around and bug you if he is bored.

There are some activities that both dogs can do together and some that they can only do individually, and that's OK.   They are individuals and while I don't think that it is unfair to acknowledge and act on this fact, I do think that it would be unfair to constantly hold one dog back from doing something the other dog could not so they could both be treated to exactly the same activities.  I think it would be sad if Jack could never go to a dog park because Sally cannot, and I think would be sad if Sally could never hike because Jack cannot go to far.   

 I don't think it's weird I think it is a mature and thoughtful consideration.  I am sold on rescue, I will never show a dog so would rather give a cast-off a home.  This does mean that I have less control over what that dog is like though and I accept that.  I have a short list of desired breeds/mixes and would likely go with another male.  So that is where I am.  

I am really working on DH to get a campanion for Bugsy, some of he characteristics I have prioritized are; activity level, athleticism, no aggression, and age.  Bugsy's off leash has improved but he will never be 100% so off leash capability would be nice but not necessary.  Bringing in a couch potato or an older sedate dog would be a bad decision.  Less hyper would be fine but it would have to be a above average energy dog and a large size.  And we just lucked out with B as he has NO aggression so I would not add a dog that brought that to our home.

I also think that it depends on what you want from your dogs regarding mixed needs.  I can totally see how many of you have packs with diverse needs and you manage it, I would be getting a dog for Bugs really so I would want it's needs to be similar

 I asked Maska what HE thought, and said that as long as the bossy Aussies leave his couch alone, he couldn't care less.

There are many times that one, or another, of my dogs is left home, taken for doggy ice cream, taken to the hospital or nursing home for a visit, play frisbee....etc. and the others don't get to.  I think that, as long as you make sure that none of the dogs develop SA, they can live different lives, all under the same roof, sort of like the odd maiden aunt that came to live with the equivalent of the Waltons.  Dogs are adaptable, and develop an odd respect and affection for each other, despite their differences.  The only caveat when dealing with hounds is to realize that they are such comfort freaks - even the best house trained hound might have an "oops" if you leave him too long, when the Aussie would still be sitting with her legs crossed.

AuroraLove

calliecritturs

.. I would not taunt one dog with what another can do and they can't.

LOL, its not a taunt, its a simple amtter that the obediant dog gets more freedom.

If you had two kids, one with good grades and one with bad would you hold the good grade kid back from doing things so as not to hurt the other's feelings?

Absolutely NOT - you are not getting what I'm saying. 

• First -- it's not all about "obedience" -- it's about that individual dog's capabilities and, to an extent, breed.  Luna is a hound mix -- her brain is in her nose, full stop.  It's how she's wired -- any thought she has essentially goes thru the nose first.  I would never put her in a situation where potentially she might screw up and die for it.  Billy, altho a hunting breed, is far far more sedentary and it orders his thinking differently -- it isn't just "smell = do" it's "is it worth the effort?"
• There are simply things that one dog physically may be capable of and love doing that another one can't.  And that's truly where you missed MY point badly -- Billy loves pet therapy every bit as much as the others do, but he is simply not "able" to health-wise.  And I would never put him in the position of 'watching' the others do something he's physically not capable of but wants to do.  (Like pet therapy at a facility he won't qualify for.)
• Honestly I think completely the opposite -- I don't think a dog actually understands (tho I think they understand *a lot*) "OH dear, I'm not allowed off leash because I'm not as obedient as Poochie is, so that's why he gets to be off leash and I can't be".  I think *that* rationale is anthropomorphic.

AuroraLove

I surely hope not. When Primo is let off leash, dosnt respond and I walk over to retrieve him should I leash Rory too because Primo disobeyed?

You're drawing a conclusion 180 degrees away from my situation that absolutely does not apply.  Sorry!

In my particular example (and the way I deal with *my* dogs -- I don't leash dog B because dog A screwed up.   I leash BOTH OF THEM ***ALL*** the time (except in our own fenced yard where I know I'm in control) because I don't trust any dog park, I don't trust any traffic pattern, and I firmly believe anything can happen any time any where.  It may not even be that my dog isn't obedient 'enough' but rather I don't want to risk some unknown event (like a predator, a small prey animal darting in front of them that may just be doo tempting for ANY dog nose) causing a problem.

Case in point -- now they are always leashed at Give Kids the World -- first that's GKTW's rule and it's an excellent one.      But second, it's also simple etiquette in pet therapy. 

However -- last month while we were there, a squirrel didn't just run 'past' us.  We were standing in a small group of 4 adults, 2-3 children and my 2 dogs in the center of the group. 

Suddenly a suicidal squirrel darted across the Angel Walk and rather than simply go straight across to the protection of the big oak tree and bushes - this particular squirrel simply suddenly changed direction and CHARGED into the middle of this group of adults, children AND ***DOGS*** -- the squirrel came literally nose to nose with Luna and ran between Luna's feet and mine to get 'past' the group. 

I actually called GKTW afterwards b ecause this was such bizzare behavior for a squirrel I was a bit afraid it was sick (maybe rabid) so I reported it in an abundance of caution.

First off, the darned squirrel scared even the children, but I don't even want to think what would have happened had Luna not be adequately leashed.  No kind of training will 100% proof that sort of bizzare occurrence and given the type of things we do, no way would I risk something tragic.

I readily admit -- we don't do the same type of things you may be talking about -- I'm not talking about a walk in the woods or country.  We live 4 houses off a major commerical six-lane high speed road and our street is a 'cut off' to the next 6 lane above us and they've installed stop signs every two blocks in a vain attempt to slow traffic down. 

 I wouldn't have my dogs unleashed in the front of my property for ANY reason whatsoever.  I almost lost one 10 years ago  -- he was on a heel next to me crossing the street, a car came out of nowhere and almost killed ME and did hit Mike tha Dog.  *MY fault* because he wasn't leashed.  It will never happen again.  Mike lived thru it (I nearly didn't) but I just don't think there is any need for, reason for, or excuse for a dog to be unleashed in suburbia like where I live.

I think when answering this we have to be particularly mindful that our indivudal, unique circumstances may not reflect *at all* what someone else's do.  What we may do with our dogs -- and what we may plan to continue doing in the future, may not be remotely close to what someone else does.  I think Kate is right -- I think we need to keep our own unique situation in mind with a realistic eye to what can and can *not* happen.

I think considering and re-considering what kind of dog you want is extremely important.  I'm on the other side of this fence.  I have a dog that I wouldn't of "picked"--You guys know I adore her, but that's not the point here.  I've had to change the way I do certain activies, the times I do things, I would of loved a second dog, she can't be included with the other family dogs at holidays,etc, etc.  I don't regret having her but in a situation where you can take your time and figure out what your needs are that's definately the way to go. 

Kate, I am like you.  Before I get my dogs and cats, I have things in my mind I'd like from that animal, temperament and personality traits I'm looking for, and then I go out and find the pet that matches that.  Sometimes it takes a week, sometimes over a year.  Unfortunately, we are just not in a position to go to the shelter and pick a pet, we don't have enough time, space, or money to re-arrange our lives for a dog that might have a totally incompatible temperament and issues we aren't prepared to deal with.  I don't think I will ever own any breed besides a German Shepherd.  There are a lot of breeds I LOVE that I know I will never own (Akita, Shikoku, Basenji, Saarloos).  They are all too primitive and too independent for what I like in a dog and what matches my lifestyle.  DH wants a pit bull or a Beagle, but I don't see us ever actually owning one of those either.  Since I take on 90% of the dog responsibilities and 100% of their training and socialization (DH will do it, but he needs my instruction), DH basically lets me have my choice of what works for us.  We talked about this the other day because he admitted that every time I ask him "what is your favorite dog?" the breed totally changes and coincidentally, it's typically the last breed he came in contact with.  He also admitted that he just loves dogs in general, he doesn't care to ANY training and just wants a buddy he can play fetch with.  So basically he says whatever I choose, he will be happy with because *I* will be happy and he will have a buddy to play with.

Now Coke is a mixture of who knows what and he has no interest in formal training.  He knows his sit, stay, down, kennel, eh eh, and working on proofing the recall.  He is very different than Kenya, but we manage this by taking them to places where it's safe for him to be off lead, or we use 50' lines (I don't generally let Kenya get more than 50' from me off lead anyway).  I do not at all regret getting Coke, but yes there are some difficulties with two totally different personalities.  The most important things is the dogs get on great and are best buds.  We committed to getting a rescue or shelter dog and along with that was the uncertainty of how well the dog could be trained.  The nice thing though is that Coke doesn't really HAVE to be off leash besides in fenced fields.  He won't be doing agility or obedience or anything like that because he'd rather play fetch in our own yard.