ok so who DOESNT use treats for training? (jm)

the_gopher

I look at it this way, Ari is food motivated VERY VERY food motivated. 

I keep seeing food associated with motivation. Something to consider is that the dog may just be hungry and the human is taking advantage of most basic need of food and water.  In an earlier post here, I read that food, toys, and pet are in the same quadrant and that satisfy a dog's desire.  I think the pleasures of food, toys, and pet (affection) are not in the same quadrant.  Food is associated with a need, toys with want, and affection with the desire (social).  I believe food and snacks are meant to satisfy hunger and taste pleasure without asking for anything in return.  I feel that is my unconditional responsibility to the dog.  When introducing a new dog to my house, I allow the dog a lot of free time to acclimate and during this time, I work on the relationship.  With a solid relationship built, affection is all I need in training.

DPU

 Something to consider is that the dog may just be hungry and the human is taking advantage of most basic need of food and water.  In an earlier post here, I read that food, toys, and pet are in the same quadrant and that satisfy a dog's desire.  I think the pleasures of food, toys, and pet (affection) are not in the same quadrant.  Food is associated with a need, toys with want, and affection with the desire (social).  I believe food and snacks are meant to satisfy hunger and taste pleasure without asking for anything in return. 

As long as my dogs get their meals, independent from any training, I'm fine with using snacks/treats if that's what they want.  My treats are pea-sized, so if we only train for a few minutes every few days, the dog is in no way starving because my snacks are not the same as a dog's meal.  Likewise, if they do get a bunch of them, it won't make them fat and I don't skimp on their regular meal.  If you want to know if a dog is truly food motivated, feed him the entire meal (often my dogs eat once a day so they eat all their food at once) and see if he's still interested in getting those treats.  I think it's more about the smell then satiating actual hunger.

I did the same for years as a nanny.  Like, "I WANNA POPSICLE!"...."OK, finish putting away your toys, ask nicely, and you can have one...."  Or, "Since you did a good job going potty on the toilet like a big girl for the whole week, we will go out for ice cream."  Interestingly, I just watched a Nanny 911 where the father thought he could raise his kids based purely on affection (he would come home from work and literally spend an hour cuddling each of the 6 kids, and then sit with each one until he fell asleep) and the result was six young boys with zero boundaries, totally out of control, and walking all over the parents. 

Personally, I think affection is what is a given (dogs and kids) and extraneous things like food, toys, games, and little freedoms are better rewards/motivators.

DPU

the_gopher

I look at it this way, Ari is food motivated VERY VERY food motivated. 

I keep seeing food associated with motivation. Something to consider is that the dog may just be hungry and the human is taking advantage of most basic need of food and water.  In an earlier post here, I read that food, toys, and pet are in the same quadrant and that satisfy a dog's desire.  I think the pleasures of food, toys, and pet (affection) are not in the same quadrant.  Food is associated with a need, toys with want, and affection with the desire (social).  I believe food and snacks are meant to satisfy hunger and taste pleasure without asking for anything in return.  I feel that is my unconditional responsibility to the dog.  When introducing a new dog to my house, I allow the dog a lot of free time to acclimate and during this time, I work on the relationship.  With a solid relationship built, affection is all I need in training.

seriously... AGAIN????

anyhow DPU... i didnt ask if you approve of using food or not. i know you dont use treats. you've stated why... let's move on....

janetmichel3009

DPU

the_gopher

I look at it this way, Ari is food motivated VERY VERY food motivated. 

I keep seeing food associated with motivation. Something to consider is that the dog may just be hungry and the human is taking advantage of most basic need of food and water.  In an earlier post here, I read that food, toys, and pet are in the same quadrant and that satisfy a dog's desire.  I think the pleasures of food, toys, and pet (affection) are not in the same quadrant.  Food is associated with a need, toys with want, and affection with the desire (social).  I believe food and snacks are meant to satisfy hunger and taste pleasure without asking for anything in return.  I feel that is my unconditional responsibility to the dog.  When introducing a new dog to my house, I allow the dog a lot of free time to acclimate and during this time, I work on the relationship.  With a solid relationship built, affection is all I need in training.

seriously... AGAIN????

anyhow DPU... i didnt ask if you approve of using food or not. i know you dont use treats. you've stated why... let's move on....

With respect to janet's request, I will keep this short. 

I have a dog that is so food motivated that if I fed her until she quit eating, she'd vomit her food back up because she'd eaten so much and then eat her own vomit and keep eating.  I could NEVER feed this dog enough that she would not eat food put in front of her.  She's just that kind of dog.  So food is an effective reward for her because she's always hungry.  She's not always hungry because I use food as a reward.  She's always hungry so I can use food as a reward.

janetmichel3009

seriously... AGAIN????

anyhow DPU... i didnt ask if you approve of using food or not. i know you dont use treats. you've stated why... let's move on....

He has stated that he uses treats to train basic obedience, but it seems he holds affection in a much higher regard as far as a reward.  I guess it just depends on the dog.  For Coke I train primarily with treats.  If that's what he wants the most, I'm fine with that.  The other day he did something really well and I said "good boy!" and reached to scratch his head (something Kenya really likes) and he ducked.  I always forget that he hates having his head touched, someone used to smack him there.  So we all just have to take into account what motivates (or de-motivates) the individual dog.  If someone trains their dog entirely with affection, I have absolutely no problem with that.  I just have a problem with people trying to tell each other that only one type of reward is appropriate. 

tashakota

I have a dog that is so food motivated that if I fed her until she quit eating, she'd vomit her food back up because she'd eaten so much and then eat her own vomit and keep eating. 

First I believe every sentence in my post began with "I" and I also expressed the WHY and suggested there may be alternative human thinking.  Perfectly legitimate post that required no personal commentary on the contents. 

Second, with respect to the above post.  I just rehomed Sampson after him living with me for a few months.  Sampson drank excess water, most likely to comfort his anxiety.  Drinking water was the most important "desire" or "want" for this dog.  Sampson created a lot of behaviors just to get to water and drink.  In this case is water the highest value reward and should it be used in training?  An anology to think about.  I am not looking for any converts to accept my dog relationship philosphy.  I am sharing what I know and my experience with many different types of dogs who come to me with their own unique issues.  Hopefully, such contrast can better a dog's situation.

DPU

Something to consider is that the dog may just be hungry and the human is taking advantage of most basic need of food and water.

No. If a dog is being fed regular meals in a quantity sufficient to maintain a healthy, appropriate weight (which I'd venture to guess everyone here is doing), then hunger has nothing to do with with it. Some dogs just love food, like my Keefer, and it would be irresponsible of me as his owner, and dangerous for the health of my dog to keep feeding him and feeding him and feeding him just because he THINKS he's hungry. His biological need for food as sustenance is being entirely met, but he still wants food, and would eat it until he literally burst.

This is another question you've never addressed - what do you do with a dog whose need for food, but not his desire, has been met, because it's impossible to satisfy that desire without endangering his health? Maybe you've never had a dog like that, but what would you do if you did?

Some dogs are food motivated because they like to eat, just like some dogs are toy motivated because they like to play, and it has nothing to do with them being depriving of any basic need. My dogs have led a very comfortable life, wanting for nothing, and Keefer was very into food even before I got him at 9 weeks old - in his litter he was the first puppy to the food bowl.

Food is only associated with a need up to a point, and that's when their nutritional needs have been fully met. After that it's all gravy, or should I say, dessert.

Cassidys Mom

This is another question you've never addressed - what do you do with a dog whose need for food, but not his desire, has been met, because it's impossible to satisfy that desire without endangering his health? Maybe you've never had a dog like that, but what would you do if you did?

You are correct, I have never really experienced what you describe, a dog that is in a permanent desire for food.  I have experienced this behavior on a short term basis but it could be that the desire was not that ingrained or the environment and focus I offer bridges the dog out of this state.  I don't know.  The emaciated dogs that I do rehab initially exhibit that behavior.  They don't know when their next meal is coming so I work on confidence and trust buidling techniques.  I gave an example of Sampson who had the unsatiable thirst and I approached this as a behavior problem and always wanting an internal comfort feeling that makes him happy only when is bladder is full.  That was hard because I had to show Sampson he can feel very good when his bladder was empty.

...... shoulda known better than to start this thread.......

DPU

Cassidys Mom

This is another question you've never addressed - what do you do with a dog whose need for food, but not his desire, has been met, because it's impossible to satisfy that desire without endangering his health? Maybe you've never had a dog like that, but what would you do if you did?

 

You are correct, I have never really experienced what you describe, a dog that is in a permanent desire for food.  I have experienced this behavior on a short term basis but it could be that the desire was not that ingrained or the environment and focus I offer bridges the dog out of this state.  I don't know.  The emaciated dogs that I do rehab initially exhibit that behavior.  They don't know when their next meal is coming so I work on confidence and trust buidling techniques.

Thank you. Now we're getting somewhere. A dog that is emaciated, that HAS been deprived, that doesn't know when his next meal is coming from - it makes perfect sense for them to always be hungry, or at least to always want food. I just think it's important to note that there ARE dogs out there who have never gone hungry, who are not emaciated, and yet have a similar desire for food above and beyond simple need. Keefer LOVES training, he's HAPPY to earn additional food, and since that's the reward that means the most to him, that's what I mostly use. Using a different, less valuable, reward would be depriving him of the opportunity to earn extra "stuff".

The interesting thing about Keefer is that he also has a really high need for physical contact and a very strong play drive too - just a more, more, more kinda guy. He's the most affectionate dog I've ever known, and unless he's behaving in a way I want to discourage, (jumping on me, climbing into my lap), I give him as much as he wants. If he's being pushy and demanding, I'll ignore him, but if he just comes over for a hug and some chest or butt scratches I gladly oblige. But if he had to choose between attention/affection and food, he'd take food every time.

I have to say I have done it all in the last 4 years.  It was never hard to teach River something new - he was always very motivated in play and the excitement of praise.  But I was also able to teach him a few parlor tricks and teaching  STAY...  using treats was most effective.  Teaching Riv NOT to do things was always difficult and treats and alternate behaviors didn't work for us.  A leash correction and a ett ett worked much better.  HOWEVER,  River (all my dogs) get treats when them come in after being outside.  It is just what I do for no real reason.  I call, they come, they get a treat!  This week we ran out of treats, River has figured this out and now when my DD calls him to come in he won't get off the deck and just looks at her.  For me or my DH he comes regardless of the treat but not for the DD.  So Kristen (DD) decided to give him a carrot in place of a treat and he came in, took the carrot and spit it out (he hates carrots)  The next day she tried the carrot again and he just looked at her like no way do I want a carrot, she has resorted to cheese until I get more treats.

I don't care that he associates treats and coming in but I thought it was a funny story. 

Max associates going to bed with getting a couple of small treats.  I used to use them to bribe the dog before him out of my spot so I could get into bed.  Max usually isn't in my spot, but we do the treats anyway.  He stays very still while I get in, open the bedside drawer and get the treats.  As soon as he hears the drawer close, he's up like a shot and ready for his treat. It's kind of like a little bedtime ritual that we both enjoy.

Joyce

 Quick reminder to stay on topic please...thanks. 

Now on a personal note, we have a spectrum here when it comes to training Ben.  Inside, not just inside my house but indoors anywhere, there is no better reward (in his eyes) than food, but he does not get overly fixated on it.  I guess I could say that indoors is "balanced" on Ben's food/attention continuum.

Outside is a different matter, and which end of the spectrum we're at depends entirely on the circumstances.  In a "play" situation such as being at the park, Ben does. not. care. about food.  Hold up a tennis ball and an entire hot dog and he'll take the ball every single time.  So, when training in those situations, food is worse than useless, it's just something extra to carry.  I don't bother.  If I'm training at the park (which I don't do as often as I used to because now it's just maintenance, Ben behaves at the park the way I want/need him to) I will ask for a behaviour and, if he does it, I'll throw his ball for him.

At the other end we have "work" situations, which encompasses a variety of activities and count as work for a variety of reasons.  Agility (although that's a special case, I reward some things with food but not others), but also sitting patiently outside a store with myself or DH while the other goes in, obedience classes and even simply walking on a lead.  When you have a dog who spends most of his outside time off-lead, the 5 minute walk to the park is a means to an end, and not particularly fun or rewarding in and of itself.  In all of these situations, with the exception of certain agility activities, rewarding Ben with food is completely impractical.  The excitement of the situation is simply too much and he becomes *crazed* by the idea of food.  So, at agility I use food to reward contacts but at no other time, preferring to allow the next obstacle as a reward.  Sitting outside a store?  The one of us who goes in praises him for sitting nicely when we get out again.  At obedience classes I use only my voice.  With leash walking forward momentum is the reward for not pulling.  All of these feel "natural" to me in their given situations.