ok so who DOESNT use treats for training? (jm)

Zoe will only work for food.  If you try to get her to follow a command and you don't have food to reward her, she will literally give up and walk out of the room.  The only exception is when we are involved in a good game , she will follow commands to get you to throw the toy.  But no, praise alone is not gonna cut it with her!

 Zack will also work very well for food, although it's not #1 on his priority list and often misbehaving is more rewarding  to him.

 I have to say I'm really surprised at the answers.  It seems everything I read about modern training methods involves not much more than toting a bag full of treats around wherever you go. I was starting to feel like the constant offering of food must make it less exciting and less rewarding after a while.

jenns

 I have to say I'm really surprised at the answers. 

You're surprised!  I am really enjoying this thread.  Not one mention of roast beef.

chelsea_b

 I ONLY use food rewards in training. I'm basically a treat dispenser, and that's perfectly good with me.

All of my pockets have little dog treats in them.  Have  you ever taken your jacket off in church, a restaurant or someones house and have dog treats spill across the floor? *sigh*

Joyce

I would image that most of you, as I do, use treats or toys in initial training, with the goal of weaning off the treats.  I wouldn't expect that treats are a forever thing, would you?  Just to get focus, teach and reward during the training sessions.

Call it a bribe or a reward...not much difference, in this context.

jenns

Zoe will only work for food.  If you try to get her to follow a command and you don't have food to reward her, she will literally give up and walk out of the room. 

That is merely the result of improper phasing out of the food. (Actually, I don't mean phasing out because I never do that.) But there is a way to reduce the use of food so that only an occasional reward is necessary and the food does not actually have to be on your person.

yeah, regardless of what method you use to train- roast beef, choke collar corrections, toys, praise- it's important to "phase out" the constant use of the reward/punishment. A dog who won't obey unless he's wearing a choke collar and leash; a dog who won't obey unless food is present; a dog who won't obey unless constantly and profusely praised; a dog who won't obey unless toys are present isn't a dog who was "spoiled" or "bribed" it's an improperly trained dog.

  It seems everything I read about modern training methods involves not much more than toting a bag full of treats around wherever you go. I was starting to feel like the constant offering of food must make it less exciting and less rewarding after a while.

you're completely wrong. Modern training methods use the theory of operant conditioning. Most dogs are highly food motivated and it's easy to rapid-fire reward many times with food so it's a common +R method; but what actual reward is used for the +R depends entirely on THE DOG. If the dog doesn't find the reward reinforcing in that context the training doesn't work very well. One of the key factors in a really skilled trainer is their ability to identify what to use for that dog and that situation for +R; the other key factor is timing. And you should work towards have many possible +R for your dog, some of which don't require you to prepare ahead of time. You can build up the value of alternative +R, such as praise, so you can at need reward your dog.

jenns

I have to say I'm really surprised at the answers.  It seems everything I read about modern training methods involves not much more than toting a bag full of treats around wherever you go. I was starting to feel like the constant offering of food must make it less exciting and less rewarding after a while.

Yes, if you do reward each and every time a behavior is offered, it does indeed get less exciting. But if you put the dog on the right variable reward schedule, their excitement level remains very high.

Here's my favorite analogy for a reward schedule.

Do you know anybody who fly fishes? If you do then you know it can be very addicting. Fly fishermen are crazy passionate about their sport. So let's think about the reward schedule.

What if you caught a fish each and every time you dropped your line in the water? How passionate would you be about the "sport"? How long and how often would you fish? Well, you would only fish enough to get food on the table. If you were not hungry, no reason to fish.

At the other extreme, if someone took up fishing and never caught a fish, they are going to give up on the sport.

The excitement of fly fishing comes with the unpredictable rewards. A nibble can be encouragement. Landing a fish is exciting, and there is always the hopes of the really big trophy fish.

With dogs, you want to start with enough rewards to keep their attention, and then work on cutting back on the treats so that the dog has to put out some real effort which makes the treat more valuable. And it needs to have an element of unpredictability. Really good performances might get a "jackpot" or a big handful of treats.

thanks mudpuppy and samshine for explaining.  I am going to start another thread regarding a problem I'm having.

well... it looks like there are only very few people that dont use treats in initial training. makes sense to me, since treats are often high value and have a sort of precision to them....

but yeah, i taught many things entirely without treats. going potty on command, heel (again, just my crappy version of it), etc...

mudpuppy

and use treats and I HATE IT.  It's a bribe

no it's not. It's a reward. Identical to using praise, toys, love, whatever- dog is good, he gets a reward.  I use whatever the dog wants- I have two dogs who aren't particularly food-motivated and it would be kind of stupid to try to train them with food. One loves toys and the other loves butt-scratches. I have another dog who is really food motivated- it would be kind of stupid to try to train her with toys or butt-scratches cause she could care less.

Please don't take me out of context there -- IN TRAINING CLASS it is a *bribe*.  It's what everyone does, it's how it is done.  In training class **I hate it**.  But it's unavoidable. 

I'm not denouncing treats training full stop -- because any 'reward' can be a bribe.  But it's not how I train at home -- and I train at home more by making it so the dog can't screw up, they get used to doing the 'right' thing and I don't put them in a position to screw up. 

Most classes are not my thing.  I use them when we need to do particular behaviors and socialization, etc.  But I'm not a follow the crowd type of person.  But to a degree in a class you have to do what everyone else does or it's too distracting to your dog and other dogs to do something wildly different.  so I bend to treats ... but I do hate it.  THERE *for me and mine* it is a bribe.

Another way of thinking of it is as the slot machine effect. We keep playing and playing and playing, hoping for that big jackpot. If we NEVER won, we'd give up. If we got used to getting a jackpot every time we pulled the handle, we'd get mad and give up the first time we DIDN'T get anything. But with a variable reward system, we never know when or how much we might win so we keep plugging away.

For a new or difficult behavior, or even a change in criteria for an established behavior (increase in distance, duration or distraction), the reinforcement schedule remains high, but then moves to a random reinforcement schedule, and in many cases can be eventually  phased out. I always pair treat or toy rewards with enthusiastic praise, so even though they may not be getting a treat at all anymore for that particular behavior, or maybe just occasionally, they still get something, an acknowledgement that they did good.

Even though my dogs have known "sit" forever and have generalized it to a variety of circumstances, I may still use a treat lure if the distraction level is very high, such as agility class. But around the house where "sit" means plant your butt on the ground/floor immediately no matter what, I never use treats. It's really important to understand the concept and use food rewards correctly.

Cassidys Mom

Another way of thinking of it is as the slot machine effect. We keep playing and playing and playing, hoping for that big jackpot. If we NEVER won, we'd give up. If we got used to getting a jackpot every time we pulled the handle, we'd get mad and give up the first time we DIDN'T get anything. But with a variable reward system, we never know when or how much we might win so we keep plugging away.

For a new or difficult behavior, or even a change in criteria for an established behavior (increase in distance, duration or distraction), the reinforcement schedule remains high, but then moves to a random reinforcement schedule, and in many cases can be eventually  phased out. I always pair treat or toy rewards with enthusiastic praise, so even though they may not be getting a treat at all anymore for that particular behavior, or maybe just occasionally, they still get something, an acknowledgement that they did good.

Even though my dogs have known "sit" forever and have generalized it to a variety of circumstances, I may still use a treat lure if the distraction level is very high, such as agility class. But around the house where "sit" means plant your butt on the ground/floor immediately no matter what, I never use treats. It's really important to understand the concept and use food rewards correctly.

I cannot agree more with what Cassidy's mom said.  Well put!

I look at it this way, Ari is food motivated VERY VERY food motivated.  She's not obsessed with getting the food to the point she loses focus on me.  She works for food, but once a behavior (or trick call it what you like) is down solid (for her sit) I use praise as well and treats very sporadically right now.  Ari could care less if I praise her, she's already quite pleased with herself!  Patting her just gets her riled up at this point, and involving her in a game as a reward would not work with her at all.

I think of it this way as well - I don't work for praise or scratches (though my SO will tell you scratch my head and I'm putty lol).  I work for money.  It's what *I* want out of doing what someone wants out of me.  Ari wants food, Ari will do what *I* want for food. Yes, I carry treats around with me all the time (I don't think liver treats smell will ever come out of my pockets!)- but once the behaviors become more automatic and solid the treats get phased out - but not entirely.  I will always use them sporadically to reinforce the behavior.

Please don't take me out of context there -- IN TRAINING CLASS it is a *bribe*.  It's what everyone does, it's how it is done.  In training class **I hate it**.  But it's unavoidable. 

I'm not denouncing treats training full stop -- because any 'reward' can be a bribe.

it's never a "bribe" unless used incorrectly, i.e. you show it to the dog and say "if you do X I'll give you THIS" which is simply really bad training technique and is actually used more often with toys than treats in classes. Are you one of these people who think dogs should mysteriously want to work hard for nothing? there are zero dogs in existance who will work for nothing. I suggest all dog owners read "don't shoot the dog"  by Karen Pryor to get a handle on how training actually works. You'd be amazed how many professional "dog trainers" don't actually understand what they are actually doing when they apply the particular methods they have learned, whether those methods involve collar yanks or treats.

Willow only really ever got treats during training when I was first teaching her.  Then sometimes she'd get it sometimes she wouldn't.  Now, she just gets a "good girl" when she does something she knows.  I didn't really have many options for what to use, she's not into toys or other rewards that some dogs like.