Gizmo's Breed Test Results!

I wonder what Maze would be.. Lol. Would be fun to take the test just to see. But sadly I don't have the cash for that so she'll stay a BC/Black Lab mix. Lol.

RidgebackGermansShep

i looked through the website, and i was shocked to see how many dogs were supposedly mixed with clumber spaniels. I thought they were extremely rare...

I know, it really surprises me the breeds that some of these dogs turn up with.  There are some on there that seem like a very unlikely mix and breeds that are not so common popping up very often in many test.  I was really expecting to see more GSD mixes, Staffys and more of the common breeds that I come across all the time. 

I go back and forth on whether I believe any of it or not at all.  Around the area Gizmo came from there is a very high amount of herding and herding mix dogs so I had always thought, and still do, that she is a herding breed.  Her herding trainer thinks that perhaps since BCs originated from a mix of other farm dogs with the intent to surve a purpose, that it could be possible for the DNA of the dog she has traces of are part of the original make up of a BC.  At least that would explain a few things...if the test are anywhere near accurate?  From some reading it is even believed the setter was used in creating the BC, so that could explain the Irish Setter part of her test. 

Here is a snip from a site I found describing the origin of BCs

http://www.bordercollie.org/kpwhere.html 

"Later on, the setter or pointer was developed, with the behavior described in the first paragraph. The hunting instinct of the primitive dog was inhibited, the dog would stop, stay back, and point to its prey instead of attacking it. There is little doubt that this is the origin of "eye" in the Border Collie. The strong-eyed dog that refuses to get up and move its sheep is no different from the bird dog that is "staunch on point." In the hunting dog it is an asset; in the sheepdog it goes too far. It is the same response. The original cross of birddog/sheepdog may have been accidental, it may have been a search for the multi-purpose dog. Whatever the reason, this behavior, added to the sheepdog, made a better working dog--one that was more effective and easier on the sheep than the old style that probably moved sheep by barking and biting."

Now if I could figure out the  chow and wolfhound parts or just come to the conclusion that she's a breed that can't be tested for?
 

Well, I think that one of you guys with a purebred something-or-other should send in a blood sample and see what they come up with for that one... 

They say that with known 50/50 mixes, the test is accurate 84% of the time. So I would imagine with dogs who are, you know, 1/4 this, 1/4 that, an 1/8 that..blah blah, they accuracy goes way way down.

The thing that makes me wonder about Max - who looks to be lab and GSD - is his size. He's 60 lbs. which is way smaller than the average male lab or GSD and because he's able to focus so intently on something for such a long time, the vet thinks he might have one of the herding breeds in him.  If there's a little BC in there, that could account for his smaller size.

Joyce

As I mentioned, Xebby, there are recent crosses of bird dog and sighthounds in the Border Collie, but not to "develop" the breed, but rather to create dogs that were good for herding during the day and stealing game after hours.  

The eye in sheepdogs dates back much further than the eye in bird dogs, and it's a somewhat different behavior, anyway.  Some dogs pop up with the setter-type eye and these dogs are useless for work.

Bully breeds are also crossed on Border Collies/Aussies to produce gamey "catch" dogs for hunting or herding feral livestock such as swine, goats, or cattle.   This is still done with great regularity today.

I could see how all this could skew the results.  I just wonder why the test didn't pick up the obvious BC - and I can only conclude it is because the lines the Gizmo comes from are very old.  Some dogs around here have been isolated from the modern gene pool for decades, and we now now this will cause genetic drift equivalent or even more, than the measurable variation between some breeds. 

Labs are SUPPOSED to be 50 to 60 pounds and GSDs (a herding breed, by the way, that can be very intense) are SUPPOSED to be 60 to 75 pounds. The monster 100-pound representatives of these breeds are incorrect. So Max's size is proper for a lab/GSD mix.

fuzzy_dogs_mom

The thing that makes me wonder about Max - who looks to be lab and GSD - is his size. He's 60 lbs. which is way smaller than the average male lab or GSD and because he's able to focus so intently on something for such a long time, the vet thinks he might have one of the herding breeds in him.  If there's a little BC in there, that could account for his smaller size.

Joyce

I don't see much GSD in him based on the siggy pic, but 60lbs is fine for a GSD.  Mine is 55, never over 60.  I believe my uncle's purebred field lab is about Kenya's size but weighs a little more.  A GSD really should not be more than 80lbs, maybe a bit more at the top end of the standard with a lot of bone.

I wonder what on earth they would think of Chaudron...man I wish I had the money!

I just sent his DNA off to UC Davis for a different study, though.

Liesje

I don't see much GSD in him based on the siggy pic, but 60lbs is fine for a GSD.  Mine is 55, never over 60.  I believe my uncle's purebred field lab is about Kenya's size but weighs a little more.  A GSD really should not be more than 80lbs, maybe a bit more at the top end of the standard with a lot of bone.

I think it's all the black on his muzzle that makes people think GSD and his eyes look like he's into some pretty pricey eyeliner. I know there are a lot of other shepherds that have those same facial markings besides the GSD. There's someone in my neighborhood with two GSDs -  his female is over 80 lbs. and the male is a bit over 100. I figured that was the norm, but apparently not? They're really huge dogs, both of them. If he is a mix of GSD and lab, he definitely has the goofy "pet me, I love everybody" lab personality.

Joyce

That black mask marking is so common in random bred dogs that one is forced to conclude that either there are a lot of very busy GSDs in the world (plus a smattering of very fertile shar peis, black mouth curs, chows, Tervs, and Leos among others), or, that the trait is recessive.

I favor the idea that it's a recessive trait.  Breeds which have this trait usually breed true very quickly.  For instance, it was only a couple generations after the Leonberger standard was settled upon, that one no longer saw the huge variation in markings and color present in the breed until then.  Does anyone know whether two Terverens can produce anything other than a Terveren?  The long coat is recessive, I know.

Because the color is so common, I hesitated for a long time to claim Leonberger as Lynn's heritage.  If I didn't have easy access to livestock and water, her ancestry might still be a mystery.   There's no real doubt though now - and I'll save my money and trust the evidence of my eyes that my water-loving, hole digging, yodelling, kid-adoring, livestock guarding and herding little black masked mixed breed, is indeed part Leonberger.

brookcove

That black mask marking is so common in random bred dogs that one is forced to conclude that either there are a lot of very busy GSDs in the world (plus a smattering of very fertile shar peis, black mouth curs, chows, Tervs, and Leos among others), or, that the trait is recessive.

I favor the idea that it's a recessive trait.  Breeds which have this trait usually breed true very quickly.  For instance, it was only a couple generations after the Leonberger standard was settled upon, that one no longer saw the huge variation in markings and color present in the breed until then.  Does anyone know whether two Terverens can produce anything other than a Terveren?  The long coat is recessive, I know.

Groenendaels can pop up in a Terv litter.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=694369&category=LIFE&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=6/9/2008

brookcove

That black mask marking is so common in random bred dogs that one is forced to conclude that either there are a lot of very busy GSDs in the world (plus a smattering of very fertile shar peis, black mouth curs, chows, Tervs, and Leos among others), or, that the trait is recessive.

 According to several of the Norwegian Elkhound breeders I know, GSDs have Elkhound in their background. Elkhounds are a very old breed that pre-date GSDs. Ole is often confused with a GSD by people who don't know dogs that well. I can see why. Check out his ears and mask.

 I don't think the DNA people even have Norwegian Elkhound in their database.

 Regardless of what they have and what they don't have, I think it's a joke. I tell you what, I'm going to offer a service that is EVERY BIT as accurate as those DNA folks. Yes M'am! You send me a picture of a dog and I will use intuition, and the best guessology money can buy and tell you what *I* think your mutt is! Let's see....what should I charge? How about five bucks?  For FIVE BUCKS I bet I can come up with just as good a joke as those DNA jokers!!
 

Well, and here's the answer to one of my questions:

The breeds in this validation study represent 45 percent of American Kennel Club registrations.

They only used AKC registered dogs! 

That cuts out about 95% of North American Border Collies, most of whom are registered only with ABCA or CBCA.  Not to mention the hundreds of McCallum Border Collies who have their own North American registry and trace their foundation back to the Australian working registry.  The study my friend is doing suggests that inclusion of AKC BCs, and not working line only BCs, will drastically skew their results - both when they ID the markers for the Border Collie breed, and when they attempt to match North American dogs to those markers.  A dog that is mostly working line Border Collie will show as a big blank, with a smattering of "ghosts" from the working Border Collie's mish-mash genetic heritage (sighthounds, setters, bully breeds).

Hmm, kinda like what happened with Gizmo. 

The whole thing is bogus. 

jeano

 Regardless of what they have and what they don't have, I think it's a joke. I tell you what, I'm going to offer a service that is EVERY BIT as accurate as those DNA folks. Yes M'am! You send me a picture of a dog and I will use intuition, and the best guessology money can buy and tell you what *I* think your mutt is! Let's see....what should I charge? How about five bucks?  For FIVE BUCKS I bet I can come up with just as good a joke as those DNA jokers!!
 

Hey! I thought of that first!!!!  LOL!  My use of the stool sample is Much More Scientific than your test!!!