Quality of life

Gizmo83036

mudpuppy

well now think from the dog's perspective. Certainly starving to death isn't optimal, but most dogs would cheerfully give up regular meals for more time and attention from their social group; most dogs would happily trade in their "balanced" kibbles for table scraps; I suspect most dogs would rather sleep in a car or leaky tent with their family than be kept isolated 23/7 in a lovely backyard or spend 10 hours a day alone in a plush mansion; most dogs would definitely opt for less vet care and probably opt for less grooming if asked

 

Ok, so you have a dog suffering malnutrition from eating table scraps at irregular intervals, a dog that's happy sleeping in the car with his family but is mentally suffering from being locked in that car while the owner is working or looking for work, a sick dog that has contracted a disease due to no vaccinations and a poor immune system from poor diet, and has matted hair and bloody skin from no grooming.

So that's the worst case scenario, long-term consequences of these decisions... but it shows that even though the dog may choose that, it isn't in their best interest. That's where we have to choose for them what is best.

Gizmo I don't recall your OP saying "if your dog is malnurished" or "mentally suffering"  etc, it was about quaility of life in general.  I don't think a decrease in quailtiy of life means any of these things and I don't think Mudpuppy spoke to the dogs being malnurished or mentally suffering either?  If you beleive that the change in quality of life is malnurished and mentally suffering you should change your original post, I think you would probably get different answers. 

For me, if I couldn't take care of my dog I would find someone who could.  But sleeping in a car and eating table scraps is not being able to take care of my dog - IMO.  The bums on the streets take good care of their dogs, have happy (or what looks like happy) and well socialized dogs and they don't have a house or a golden bed to put them in.  Animial Planet recently ran a story on three homeless people and there dogs and let me tell you, it puts things in a new light.  The animal professionals couldn't say enough about the care and love these dogs received.  They ate out of the garbage, just like there masters.  They slept on the street in a cardboard box, snuggled close to there masters.  They walked the streets all day, unleashed and obdienent.  The only real issue were shots and health care, all three homeless were given either a Vet willing to see there dogs and give them shots for free or they were brought and told about the free clinics.

 Quaility of life has nothing to do with where you live and what you eat.  It has to do with overall happiness and health for all.  I grew up on a farm and my grandfather fed all his dogs 80% table scraps and some kibble and none of them were malnurished.

luvmyswissy

If you beleive that the change in quality of life is malnurished and mentally suffering you should change your original post, I think you would probably get different answers.

Quaility of life has nothing to do with where you live and what you eat.

I'm specifically avoiding defining scenarios and situations, because the world isn't black and white. I'm just trying to get people to think about the consequences of their actions. Those could be long-term consequences of mudpuppy's example.

Quality of life could encompass many things, and food and living conditions contribute. One of my main points of contention is that a dog would suffer from being locked in a car for hours - obviously street dogs don't have that problem. They're getting plenty of mental and physical exercise.

(((I also think it is arrogance to say as one person did, “I will never be in this kind of situation”. No one can make that kind of assertion.)))

I believe you mean me. You can take that statement anyway you want to.

I`m going to stand by what I said. We own our house (have for years) We have two businesses. If by some chance we would ever lose both businesses and our home Dh the dogs and I would not be living in our vehicle or on the street. My dad lives 7 miles from us. My daughter and sister live 40 miles from us. My son lives 150 miles from us. My husband has three grown children that live 40 miles from us + his mother. I have 3 cousins that live within waking distance 3 more 20 miles away. A Aunt that lives a couple blocks away from us. Then theres my brother. Not one of these people would have us live on the street. Then we can include friends. I live in a small town. Everyone that lives in this town doesn`t necessary like everyone else but when someone or a family falls on hard times the whole town helps them out until they get back on their feet. Living in a small town in the middle of nowhere has its advantages.

Quality of life could encompass many things, and food and living conditions contribute. One of my main points of contention is that a dog would suffer from being locked in a car for hours -

I make most of my dog's food myself, basically "table scraps". They are far from being malnourished, in fact, according to the vet, far healthier than many dogs fed expensive "balanced" kibble diets. And no one blinks twice about dogs being locked in crates, which are far smaller than cars, for 20 hours a day; it's considered "normal" by so many people to crate all day and all night. I personally think that's abuse, but hey. So what exactly is different about keeping the dog in a car? only heat, and presumably a homeless working person could figure out a way to confine the dog outside the car while they go off to work.

Crating for 20 hours a day wouldn't be any better, other than the fact that the crate would likely be in a climate controlled area. Fortunately, most people don't crate 20 hours a day. But, this isn't a crating debate thread.

Confining a dog outside a car, presumably in a public area since that's all that would be available to them? Sounds like a good way to get the dog stolen, confiscated, poisoned or abused.

ETA: Chances are if the dog is confined in the car it's going to be confiscated anyway.

There are alot of variables here, it's almost impossible to say as a whole, living in a car with your dogs is ok/not ok. There are so many things that are specific to each situation that have an impact on the dogs quality of life...temperature, how big is the car?, exactly how many hours a day is the owner away from the car working?, how many people/animals are in the car?....I think there are situations where it would be ok, and situations where the dog would be better off rehomed. If the alternative is a cage in a shelter, I would venture to say the dog would almost never be better off, barring of course situations where the dog isn't being fed or temperature is too high.

For me personally though and for the others with human kids, the question would not be would I live in a car with my dogs, but would I give my dogs up to avoid having to live in a car with my kids, say for instance moving in with family/friends who won't allow your dogs.....if it were just me, I'd tell them no thanks, but having kids, I don't have that option, I would never force my kids to live in a car just to keep my dogs. I'm lucky, I have alot of options and so do my dogs, I have a big family, friends, the dogs have breeders and rescues that would take them back....I can't imagine not having that.

 Why would a dog suffer mentally from being in a car? That's what's throwing me off, in this thread. My dog doesn't suffer mentally from being in my home, in a hotel room, or in a crate. She doesn't suffer from lack of exersize, either, and walking around my house/yard *certainly* isn't exersize, for an active hunting breed. If we did end up living in a car, I'd still walk her and find a place her her to swim. I'd still give her off leash play time, where it was safe. Sleeping in one place or sleeping in another makes no difference, to a dog.

jennie_c_d

 Why would a dog suffer mentally from being in a car?

Sleeping in one place or sleeping in another makes no difference, to a dog.

Territorial aggression, OCD, effects of people harassing the dog through the windows, not being able to walk or run around, no climate control...

It isn't just sleeping in a car - it's *living* in a car.

It's really hard to say..honestly.

But, I can say that I've traveled many thousands of miles in a car with my dogs, let me tell you, they are more extactic to be in that car then they are in our own house and we have spent hours and days, sometimes weeks traveling. Haven't had a dog complain yet, cept upon returning home.

Vaccinations....well, I'm a firm believer that after the initial puppy and 1yr old vaccines, I don't believe they need anymore personally. And they are actually starting to prove that too many vaccines are leading to more cancers and auto immune diseases. My dogs get vaccines from puppyhood to a year old, after that I don't vaccinate.

I have a 9yr old chihuahua that has been everywhere and his last vaccines were at a year old, he's never been sick. He's exempt from the state for ever having another rabies vaccine, highly allergic to it.

I wrote a story in high school of what I felt the great depression would do to a family with kids/pets, it's amazing what we as different indiviuals feel is the minimum amount of care.

That same chihuahua has only been to the vet once in 7yrs for a complete physical.....why, there was no need, he's in the perfect state of health...and let me tell you, dogs can survive much longer then a human can on table scraps before malnurishment set in, and if you OR your dog was truly on the verge of starvation, you'd be dumping every trash can you could, AND with the amount of waste our world throws out, one could never go too hungry.

I could walk down our street right now and easily find several trash cans full of last nights dinner scraps. But you won't find that in mine, no, we ate the same thing for dinner the night before, lunch yesterday, and the same thing for dinner last night.....see, I've been on homelesses door, and I DO go without a lot of things.

Gizmo83036

 

jennie_c_d

 Why would a dog suffer mentally from being in a car?

Sleeping in one place or sleeping in another makes no difference, to a dog.

Territorial aggression, OCD, effects of people harassing the dog through the windows, not being able to walk or run around, no climate control...

It isn't just sleeping in a car - it's *living* in a car.

For me my dog dosen't have territorial aggression, OCD and I would be living in the car too, so people harassing through windows wouldn't happen and honestly I can't see that happening anyway - I don't live in the Bronx's.  If you OP said to me, would you give your dog up if you lived in a car and he had territiorial agression, OCD and people were continually harassing us throught the window and he never go out of the car to walk around and it was so hot in the car we thought we were going to die, then yes I would put him in shelter.  But I think your making up the worst of the worst of a situation and not the best.  If you want to think of the very worst I think maybe I would consider it.  I love my dog and wouldn't want him to suffer.  But based on that article and how I would preceive living in a car for us, that would not be the case.  The worst part would be we didn't have a home or job.

And..  if it were between my kids living in a car or a home was dependent of where my dogs were than yes, I might give them up for a short time.  Again, that isn't the senario that was provided originally.  We read an article and the the OP posted branched off based on that article and said what would you do?  No one put a different perceptive on how we were living in a car.  Anyway, I am done this thread is actually silly now.

luvmyswissy

For me my dog dosen't have territorial aggression, OCD and I would be living in the car too, so people harassing through windows wouldn't happen and honestly I can't see that happening anyway - I don't live in the Bronx's.

Again, that isn't the senario that was provided originally.

Gizmo83036

 

jennie_c_d

 Why would a dog suffer mentally from being in a car?

Sleeping in one place or sleeping in another makes no difference, to a dog.

Territorial aggression, OCD, effects of people harassing the dog through the windows, not being able to walk or run around, no climate control...

It isn't just sleeping in a car - it's *living* in a car.

That was the whole point of my post. When we're at home, my dog is sleeping. She comes to work, with me. She goes for walks, with me. She's not running around the house, like a fool, getting a ton of exersize. She eats nothing but "table scraps" (no dog food, at all, and only minimal supplements). She is in amazing health, and competes in rally obedience, so I think her mind is ok.  

With my professional aptitudes and experience being ALL in the pet industry, I'm not guessing I'll have a job where she can't come. I take her to interviews, because if she can't come, I don't want the job.... And if the car is too hot for her, it's too hot for me, too, and we'll both get out. 

jennie_c_d

My dog, with her specific physical and emotional needs, will never live with anyone but me. It's that easy, with her. With another dog? Maybe not so much....

See, that's about where I am too. And it's hard when you have a dog you know can only live with you, to then say well, if I had a friendly perfectly healthy, and well, sane dog, it would be different.. Because I don't know if it would be or not.

All I know is this dog has been my best friend since I was 11 years old, she's been by my side constantly, and when she's not by my side, she's liable to bite someone, to rip her own skin apart from being slightly itchy and REALLY depressed, etc...

This dog will continue being by my side until *I* feel like death is better for her, whether that's because of old-age, or because of terrible living conditions (which really wouldn't happen to me either..I know everyone thinks that's an arrogant thing to say, but I have a really close-knit family, even to very extended family, and none of them would let me be homeless, nor would any of them say I was welcome but Cherokee wasn't..).

As long as I'm alive, she'll never know another "master". And if I do happen to get struck by lightning or something? I'm still thinking on that... I'm having a tough time deciding whether her going to my Mom, or being PTS would be better...

jennie_c_d

That was the whole point of my post. When we're at home, my dog is sleeping. She comes to work, with me. She goes for walks, with me. She's not running around the house, like a fool, getting a ton of exersize. She eats nothing but "table scraps" (no dog food, at all, and only minimal supplements). She is in amazing health, and competes in rally obedience, so I think her mind is ok. 

That's an exceptional situation. Most people won't be able to take their dog to work. If someone were living in a car but taking their dog everywhere they went than it's likely the dog wouldn't suffer any effects - the dog would be getting plenty of mental and physical stimulation. Unfortunately, most jobs aren't like that. I haven't had a job I could take my dog to in all my working years.

 Chelsea, I'm right beside you. If I were struck by lightening, Emma would be euthanized. My mom can't handle her, even though she's lived with her for years. Nobody I know has the time to care for her (some folks would be able, but already have a full plate with their dogs).

Gizmo, we all have "unique" situations. Every person, and dog is different. My dog hasn't suffered ill effects from staying in a hotel room. We have traveled a lot, lately. She spends a significant amount of time crated, while we travel. It doesn't bother her a bit. I'm a dog groomer, and I assist a trainer on the side. I am also learning to handle conformation dogs. I happen to be one of those ridiculous, over the top dog people (and lots of folks on here are). I doubt I'd ever end up homeless (because of wonderful family, and wonderful dog nerd friends), but if I did, my dog would stay with me til the end.