Quality of life

pofi_pasquale

I have to think that at this point in time it is neither in this woman nor her dogs' best interest that they be further traumatized by separating them; she has endured a very unfortunate series of events leaving her in a precarious circumstance, but she is clearly doing her best to take care of herself and them and saying she should make the decision to give them up to a shelter seems almost punitive. 

I just don't think we can make a blanket statement - each situation is as individual as that pet and that person. 

In no way was this thread meant to be a judgment or even a commentary on this particular woman or her situation, it just happened to be a ready example. I had just hoped to get people thinking about themselves and their dogs and perhaps be less judgmental. There were some strong black and white/blanket statements being made in another thread and sometimes the world just isn't that clear.

 I draw the line when the quality of care is so poor in these situations it would turn fatal.  If my dog was going to die of starvation and there was nothing I could do to get more food, I would give him up.  If he was sick or injured and I couldn't afford any vet care to fix it and there was a shelter/person willing to pay the costs, I would give him up.

 As for a person sleeping in a car with their dogs and feeding them low quality dog chow, no I don't think they are hurting their dogs doing it.  I also don't think living in a car is a horrible fate for a dog.  To many healthy stable dogs have no problem being crated for 8+ hours while their owners work so a roomy car would actually be a step up in space.  If a person loves their dogs enough to carry the extra burden even when things are bad, than I have no doubt their dogs have an equally strong bond.  I know Kirby would gladly live or go anywhere as long as I was there.  That's his personality.  It's why even when we are at his favorite place, the dog park, all I have to do is turn and start to head to the gate and he is by my side ready and happy to leave simply because the park would be no fun to him if I wasn't there.

There are thousands of dogs all over the world that live with their owners, have never tasted dog chow or seen a vet, and yet they are happy and live good quality lives.  You also have to remember we don't live in a perfect world.  The majority of the dogs surrendered over, especially the older ones aren't going to get to live in some fairy tale home.  Instead they will probably spend their last few days confused, wondering where their lost pack mates are as they lay in a lonely cage surrounded by the constant howls of other scared and lonely dogs before they are finally led to their death.
 

If it were up to Tootsie, she would gladly live in a car, as long as I was there. I would have a very hard time giving her up. 

This is another of those discussions that tries to make things FAR too black and white ... reality isn't like that. 

Frankly, I've been in such poverty -- literally an inch from the street (and almost worse -- not having running water for months when I had to haul water to flush the toilet or wash in, living without air-conditioning in 100 degree heat for YEARS). 

But it *was* temporary.  I survived and so did my dogs.  When I was single life wasn't easy either -- and I often lived unbelievably frugally just so I could keep a roof over our heads and food in our tummies. 

You don't get severe malnutrition from living on peanut butter and ramen noodles and discount veggies for months.  The dog got vet care before I got medical care, even if I had to muck out cages to help pay for it. 

BUT IT **WAS** TEMPORARY.  Things got better.  Had I given them up likely they would have been euthanized.  Listen to the folks on here who do volunteer in shelters -- turn ins are WAY up ... adoptions are way down. 

There was a time when I ate crow and went home and asked my folks to take care of Pris while I went back to school.  I hated being away from her but I had to get my degree.  Sometimes you make options.  You ask for help from a friend, from a church, or you BEG for a job. 

The gal living in her car -- she's not leaving those dogs with the windows rolled up in 100 degree heat while she works in an air-conditioned office.  I'm sure she covers those bases as she can.  It's amazing what survival skills we develope when we *must*.

I'm hoping this woman in this article gets a place to stay *because* of it.  This is the time for those of us who can afford it to start "desperation funds" at our local vets and shelters. 

But give up?  The ramifications of giving up can be far reaching.  There are times when all that keeps a homeless person going is providing for their pet.  There were times as a single person one of the things that kept ME straight was knowing Pris counted on *me*.  Even when I was going thru a heinous divorce, one of the things that kept me moving forward was ... my dogs.  I **had** to.  No one else would take care of them. 

I think we have to be really careful who we encourage to 'give up' their animals ... or even suggest it as an option.  There are times when it just plain takes "purpose" out of someone's life.  That's the whole basis for pet therapy -- that they add to our lives simply by their unconditional love.

Did my dogs get tons of exercise?  Heck no -- they don't NOW.  I'm handicapped and it's just not possible for me to go out and walk my dogs miles every day.  Does that mean I'm abusive?  no.  It means I play with them inside.  It means I motivate them and give them opportunities for exercise in different ways. 

I'm hearing a really distressing thing sort of in the background in the past few weeks.  That if your life can't be "nice" -- if you can't have all the things tv and society try to impose on us as "minimums" then somehow you are a failure and don't deserve dogs?  My goodness people -- have none of you ever had it tough?  Had to 'make do'?  Had to cut the buttons off a shirt before you rip it up to dust with JUST BECAUSE you might need one to sew on something else you couldn't afford to throw out? 

My Grandmother lived in a lovely little two story bungalow in a nice section of town.  But she and Grandpa lived thru all the worst the depression had to offer -- and to her dying day she brought home fruits and veggies from the produce aisle in the grocery store, **washed out the plastic bags** and dried them inside out in the hallway of the cellar.  So she could use them again ... and again ... and again. She would have had apoplexy if anyone had suggested she spend cash money on **plastic bags**??  And she didn't die of botulism either! (And I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to tell *her* they weren't 'sterile' enough to use again!! phew!)

Somehow we have this inflated idea of what "bare necessities" are and how we can even contemplate suggesting to someone they give up their animals just because they're going thru a rough spot?  Wow ...

My 'hard times' lasted years.  some harder than others ... but I survived it.  And honestly, I'm probably a better person for it. 

And that bum living on the street with his dog?  If someone took that dog away to "re-home it"??  The shelter would likely euth it on entrace because it may have sarcoptic mange.  (shelters nearly always euth animals with sarcops and they don't ask if they were human scabies or dog sarcops either). 

But the bum is probably pretty darned good at sneaking food out in his pocket from a shelter for the dog ... or sweeping parking lots for spare money (and part of it buys dog food, and part of it probably buys MD 20-20!).  But even there -- I would never in a million years suppose to be arrogant enough to tell that man he wasn't providing for his dog. 

It's called being tough.  Surviving.  We're so fond of talking about what dogs would eat in the wild .. it's survival there ... too. 

Many Americans truly have no idea what survival skills involve.  We think we just can't DRINK water unless it comes from a little plastic bottle.  A lot of folks over the coming months will learn how to economize and do without.  Maybe even on a really scarey level -- but survival is a powerful motivator.  For *any* species.

Gizmo83036

So think long and hard and tell me, is it ok to sacrifice your pet's quality of life in order to keep them? Should your dog be forced to live in a car or other quarter too small for them - keeping in mind that it is summer - with minimal exercise and possible irregular meals or can you accept that some situations may require rehoming an animal for their own quality of life?

No.

I would rehome my dogs if I cannot honor the contracts I signed which had a standard of care. I also have the same in my contracts.

All I know is that all my dog would feel is confusion if I gave her up.  She wouldn't understand the situation.  And, putting her in that emotional state is definately not in her best interest.  If I had a child and things got tough, I'd have to find a way.  And, I'd find a way with her too.  Maybe, if possible a family member or friend would take her in for awhile.  But, that's the most "giving up" I'd do.  I wouldn't put her in a shelter or let her go to a stranger.

calliecritturs

Somehow we have this inflated idea of what "bare necessities" are and how we can even contemplate suggesting to someone they give up their animals just because they're going thru a rough spot?  Wow ...

Many Americans truly have no idea what survival skills involve.  We think we just can't DRINK water unless it comes from a little plastic bottle.  A lot of folks over the coming months will learn how to economize and do without.  Maybe even on a really scarey level -- but survival is a powerful motivator.  For *any* species.

Callie we could not agree more.    I remember daughters who were going to "die" if they didn't have designer jeans...they managed the wal mart ones just as well.  My Greatgrand mom and aunt lived through some horrible times. the famil was shotgunned out kids spread all over with what ever realtive could feed them. At the end of her days with my Grandmother my aunt remembered living in a tent along the shores of some lake in Tenn it was near a "Hollar" They made do,  her favoirte memory was of Grandmom's worst vices, she scaped to have her tiny box of snuff and a couple of packets of koolaid , unsweetened that she would dole out a teeny bit at a time a sour fruity treat .... My aunt now lives in a retirement village in Arizona she is well off and yet treasures the memories of the days when nothing was really all they had and some how it was more than enough.

As a teen I lived in Nicaragua, where I gave vaccinations, did rudmentary eye exams and gave away donated glasses, I stitched up a horrible machette wound on a drunk who kept asking me if I liked his John Wayne six shooters ? I was 16 years old. We rode horses that barely deserve to be called equinines to villages where medical care was so rare our arrival made the villages host cebrations.  Stacking our cots on top of benches to make sure we had that extra 20 or so inches off the dirt floor and still waking up with chickens roosting on us and pigs snoring uder our beds.  Seeing a retarded child , barely clean, hair pulled into a piece of string to keep it off of her face tied like a dog to keep her safe, she was well fed and in some way loved but there were no agencies to teach them or her.  She exisited and they did what they could to keep her safe. If she ate a flower or bug  it hadn't killed her. No one remembered her birth name, she was just Chica. The pain from the 60+ kilometer rides were beyond painful but we sang every song we knew the words to, saw a corner of the world nlike any we would ever bring children into and were so well treated by the folks there that leaving made all of us weep. It was a summer without records, radio, malls and leisure time.

When left a young mother with a year old daughter and pregnate again I forced myself to go on welfare.  I had been such a child of privalge but how could I choose pride over health care for my kids?  A friend from high school went throughs omething simular , when we went to grocery shop togther it caused endless arguements that I felt food stamps were to exist on and she felt it okay to buy steak and perrier, after all the cashier took the stamps so who was I to tell her what she could buy? I had a dog, she felt I was out of line since money was so tight how could I justify the expense of a pet? Each of us had our standards.

If the woman in the article lived close by me she would join the un numbered list of folks who are welcomed into my home, for meals, showers, a place to safely sleep for a few day while I hook them up with one or more of the local charities, it isn't as hard going to these places if you have a friend who goes with you. Helping you carry a food bank offering or spending a few bucks at the thrift store shopping with them making it a day of friendship not a hand out. the Hubs has called our place Bob's Bed and Breakfast for nearly all of our 27 years together. We have never turned away a family member or friend. Do we have a lot of money?   Hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah sigh I love the thought that we ever had a decent amount of money.  Some folks go to the boats and gamble , we gamble on people. When we travel and meet up with folks asking for food money or gas money at a gas station we can not give much, but I can whip up sandwitches and bag up kibble for the dog on a rope ,  that and a 5.00 bill is normally the best I can do But how could I face my Mom, or Grandmom when I cross the bridge if I held onto that tiny bit of nothing and someone went without because I judged them unworthy? Believe me folks you will all be seeing a lot more of these people at the sides of the roads and at gas stations, make up your mind NOW how will you deal with it?  A bag of dog food parceled out and a few kept in your trunk could keep a travelor and his companion together another day, and maybe, just maybe the next person may have a couple of days work they can offer .

There is NEVER any shame in learning to economize. In being flexible or in giving what you can. Karma is a funny thing ....  I may have a few rough days from time to time but tonight as I type my old lady is curled up on the bed with me.  She shares her stregnth and assures me that better days are a head for both of us, she has 47 stitches in her haunch from her surgery two weeks ago and a dozen more in her chest... they don't bother her as much as the upstart puppy tryin to score her space next to me.  Jasmine has stopped sleeping next to me a year ago or so. She would claim a soft comfy spot and sleep peacfully and happily.  Karma is simply giving us this time to share and remember so when  reach out and can't touch her or wake and her gentle snore is no longer there I will KNOW we had it. And I can treasure it always.

It may not be just being American, it may simply be the arrogance of youth that makes many of us believe we have the right to determine who may have what and who must give up what....  for folks like Callie and I who have had the adventures of growing through some really tough times  we are just lucky enough to really know what is priceless.

Bonita of Bwana

Paws for Peace

You've got it right, Callie. And I think by the end of Summer, people will be looking more towards crossovers and small cars than SUVs and F-350. As a matter of economic survival.

I've been homeless a few times but I had friends who helped me out. As for surrendering Shadow to a shelter, how does one think this would work? He won't eat except in my presence, except for hunting squirrel and even then, he doesn't consume the animal, he just chews on it like a toy. The broken heart of being placed in a shelter would be more cruel than the constraints of life on the street.

Buit that's not what the op is looking for. I saw a reply to someone here and really, the op just wants confirmation that we should give up our dogs if we hit the streets. Opposing opinion is not really desired. Too bad, I'm going to give my opinion, anyway.

Quality of life is important, defined by the dog, defined by the human. Many of us feel the dog would suffer more from not being with us. The op feels the dog would suffer because they don't have a 5,000 square foot back yard, the most expensive dog food you can buy, and the dog might be confined or tethered for up to 8 or 9 hours. Both are quality issues as defined by a human.

As for a dog with health issues, it depends on which shelter. Some might be able to treat the health problem, others will euth. Life's not fair. I've seen a few cases where a street person has a dog and the dog is just fine. He's got a job, accompanying the human, collecting cans, etc., finding scraps at restaraunts. Dogs are scavengers. They will eat anything at least once, it seems like. As for vetting, there are low-cost deals all the time. I don't think a pre-requisite for owning a dog means being able to afford living in Frisco, Tx.

But one should be prepared to re-home or surrender the dog if circumstances make it the best choice out of several crappy ones. And I think that means it's a case by case problem.

ETA:

I read the article linked in the other thread and stand by my statements. The lady will find something but it may not include living in Santa Barbara, about equivalent to living in Highland Park in Dallas. The lady is making enough to for her and the dogs to eat and the dogs are getting their walks. And she knows she will find something else. And the dogs keep her happy and vice versa. Most of mankind's existence did not include living in a 5,000 square foot split-level home. So, it's all a bit relative.

You never know until you are in the situation, but I'll be honest and say that if I found myself having to live in a car I would definately try to rehome my dog. I would not put him in a shelter unless I thought he was suffering physically or mentally by staying with me but I would give him to someone who would offer him a shelter, food, attention and care. I think I would miss him much more than he would miss me. I don't think he would live the rest of his life pining away for me. If he was in a good home with people who cared for him I have no doubt that he would adjust very quickly. Keeping him in a car would be more about meeting my needs than his. But I'll admit I would be very difficult to ever give up my dog.   

I draw the line when the quality of care is so poor in these situations it would turn fatal.  If my dog was going to die of starvation and there was nothing I could do to get more food, I would give him up.  If he was sick or injured and I couldn't afford any vet care to fix it and there was a shelter/person willing to pay the costs, I would give him up.

  .

yeah, exactly. Otherwise no, it's not in the best interests of the dog to be dumped.

 

ron2

the op just wants confirmation that we should give up our dogs if we hit the streets. Opposing opinion is not really desired.

That simply is not true. There are several wonderful opposing posts on this thread. My purpose in starting this thread was just to get people thinking. I had hoped that people would reconsider being so judgmental, as was happening on the Oh Lord thread. I had also hoped to address the hypocritical nature of expecting certain things from a dog owner, but saying their dog would be perfectly fine, even happy, without those things. I also think, with a few exceptions, that it is arrogance on the humans part to think that a dog will pine away for you. Certainly there are cases, aggressive dogs in particular, where the dog is better off with the owner but, in general, dogs are resilient. I also think it is arrogance to say as one person did, “I will never be in this kind of situation”. No one can make that kind of assertion.

Truth is, this isn’t a subject anyone could address with certainty unless they are physically currently facing it.

For the vast majority of the population, getting public assistance isn't always easy.  As a single mom I should have been able to get help.  Everytime I'd get a job, my not quite ex would show up and raise holy heck and get me fired.  I got food stamps and medical for my kids, and I think WIC as well.  He paid NO child support, lived in a different state, but close enough to harrass me, just across a state line that made it tough for anything to be enforced, AND there wasn't a court order yet since we had to go through our one year waiting period before we could even file so there was really nothing TO enforce.  And the few jobs I got that he didn't ruin by showing up acting like a fool, he ruined by taking my children from day care and turning me into a raving lunatic because the day care would call that my kids were gone.

My oldest son was born with a tiny birthmark at the corner of his mouth.  It was growing and becoming disfiguring.  I called every plastic surgeon I could find asking if any of them took the state medical.  None did.  One blessed soul didn't care.  He fixed my sons face for free.  I swallowed my pride and begged when it came to my sons.

How many of the folks who make judgements have ever rinsed out coffee filters and reused them day after day after day until they fell apart?  How many have thanked God that the daycare would feed their children breakfast and lunch so that the food stamps didn't have to be stretched quite so far?  How many have stayed up at night baking and decorating cakes because the twenty bucks or so they brought in would buy both children a new pair of shoes?  How many have had their own underware literally fall apart in the the wash because they were so danged old that there wasn't anything to keep them together anymore?

I've been there, and by golly, public programs are not all that they are cracked up to be when it comes to keeping your children in your own home.

Fast forward a good number of years, and for all intents and purposes, I'm homeless.  I have the RV and it in we all manage to live and co-exist, and continue to be happy.  But, when I left my job because the stresses of the past two years had finally caught up with me and I literally felt like I was cracking up, my husband suddenly became expendable too.  And for seven months we have been without a regular income, other than the little bit I make part time.  Would my dogs be better off in another home?  Perhaps some of them would.  But, they continue to get their regular good quality food, they don't have a yard to romp in, but they get their walks and a chance to run everyday, and I think they enjoy the romps and one on one time more than they miss their yard.  It's crowded in here, it's a constant battle to keep the fur down to a low roar and it's darned HARD.  It would be easier for me to rehome the dogs, but, I made a lifetime commitment to them and by golly, I keep my promises.  THIS is a temporary situation, and the promise I made to them isn't to be tossed aside because of a temporary hardship.

Anyone who has never struggled, I'm sorry, just doesn't have the right to make judgements.

 

 My dog, with her specific physical and emotional needs, will never live with anyone but me. It's that easy, with her. With another dog? Maybe not so much....

You keep on keeping on!  You are so right!

glenmar

I got food stamps and medical for my kids, and I think WIC as well.

I've been there, and by golly, public programs are not all that they are cracked up to be when it comes to keeping your children in your own home.

 

Maybe they aren't but think of where you'd have been without food stamps and medical coverage. At least those programs did allow you to keep your kids and provide for their basic needs. If there were dog food stamps and vet coverage I'm sure more people would be able to keep their pets. But there isn't.

I commend you doing what you are doing with your dogs.