Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding

Well this has less to do with health conditions, but the point was made in the other thread that there weren't millions of children being put to sleep that people didn't want.  They're not euthanized but they are certainly unwanted, they spend entire lives in foster care, and even when available for adoption, they don't get adopted, so, I'd say there's problems with the way humans breed as well.   

Scientifically speaking, there is evidence that suggests that female humans are physically attracted to males that they think will produce the best offspring with them.  Sadly, I think that in many cases, the mechanism has gone awry...

 Likewise there has been scientific evidence that men also choose women based on ability to produce offspring.  Specifically, men in general are more attracted to women with wider hips and to an extent, larger breasts. 

Women have shown to have more interest in men with broader shoulders. 

If I remember correctly, the experiments were based on first encounters.

I believe what makes a "good" or "productive" human goes far beyond physical attributes.  Cases to consider:

• John Milton
• Sir Isaac Newton (epilepsy)
• Benjamin Franklin (strong evidence of Asperger's, a form of autism)
  
• Beethoven
• Van Gogh
• Dickens (various disorders including epilepsy and asthma)
  
• Lincoln (mood disorder)
• Harriet Tubman (epilepsy)
  
• Anne Sullivan (Helen Keller's teacher, herself visually impaired)
• John Nash (mathematician with severe schizophrenia)
  
• Franklin Delano Roosevelt
• Einstein (Aspergers syndrome)
• JFK (asthma)
• Jesse Jackson (cleft palate)
• And of course, very famously, Stephen Hawking
  

most humans seem to have children for very selfish reasons that have nothing to do with the "best interests" of the offspring. And about 50% of kids are complete "accidents". And some people just seem in denial- I knew a guy who came from a family where NO ONE lived past age 30 due to genetic predispositions to brain tumors and serious heart problems. He thought nothing of having several kids during his early 20's then he died horribly from cancer leaving these doomed-to-die-early kids fatherless.

Benedict

But...my opinion is this:  To the best of our knowledge, dogs do not fall in love, or at least not the way people do.  For better or worse, we let that emotional attachment override the "scientific" ideals of breeding when it comes to ourselves, but those reputable people who breed dogs can make a distanced, unemotional assessment about which 2 dogs would be the best match, breeding wise.

That emotional attachment should NOT be underrated and IMO played a pretty big role in keeping the human race around. Unlike dogs, humans take a loong time to mature and become self-sufficient.  When we choose a mate we aren't choosing a breeding partner for a week, we're trying to choose someone to live with for many, many years and increase the chances of our offspring reaching adulthood.

  I say "for better or worse" because I can see, from an objective point of view, that maybe we should consider health conditions more thoroughly than we do when having kids, but that is a HUGE can of worms to open.  History, and a human's capacity for evil, would suggest that it is too easy to go too far in deciding who should breed...or even live. 

I think people who know they have some serious health problems in their families DO consider the risks when they consider having children.  Did you know you can be genetically screened before you conceive to see if you are likely to pass on certain health problems? But those screenings are for the more devastating problems that could mean the death of a child.

As for health problems that while serious are less likely to cause a child's death such as asthma, diabetes, etc... I can't see choosing whether or not to have a family with someone based on those problems.  There are too many variables in humans and too many things we can do even if we are hampered by an unsound body.

So much of what makes a person who they are isn't physical at all and it isn't unusual in humans to see brilliance in one area coupled with a deficit in another. How many brilliant scientists are physically less developed than atheletes? how many have poor eyesight or other health problems? what about musicians and painters? dancers? On the flip side---what about physically sound people with terrible temperaments?

Choosing to have kids based on physical health alone would mean sacrificing some of the most important and valuable abilities and traits in humans.

mudpuppy

most humans seem to have children for very selfish reasons that have nothing to do with the "best interests" of the offspring. And about 50% of kids are complete "accidents".

Do you have a source for this statistic?

spiritdogs

Scientifically speaking, there is evidence that suggests that female humans are physically attracted to males that they think will produce the best offspring with them.  Sadly, I think that in many cases, the mechanism has gone awry...

Yes, but in general most women suffer from the "Bad Boy Syndrome"......and lose all common sense......lol

Thank you, Kate, for starting this thread.  

BCMixs

Well this has less to do with health conditions, but the point was made in the other thread that there weren't millions of children being put to sleep that people didn't want.  They're not euthanized but they are certainly unwanted, they spend entire lives in foster care, and even when available for adoption, they don't get adopted, so, I'd say there's problems with the way humans breed as well.  

I'm so glad you answered here because I wanted to respond to this, but didn't want to take the other thread off topic further.

No, unwanted children aren't killed, but put in foster care. SOME unwanted dogs are also put into foster care. Those foster parents WANT to care for the kids (and the dogs). No one is forcing them. Without fosters for dogs, they would be put down. 

And when you think about it, ALL pet dogs, unless raised and kept with their dog parents, are in foster care or adopted (or bought/adopted). 

So we  have adopted dogs and adopted children. Foster dogs and foster children. Dogs with no caretakers, children with no caretakers. The children with no caretakers become wards of the state. Dogs with no caretakers (3-4 million a year) are killed. THAT was the point I was trying to make. Even if kids are ill, disabled, diseased or just unwanted, SOMEONE is going to take care of them. Not so with dogs.

I agree with you that there are problems with human breeding, but comparing killed dogs to foster children doesn't equate to me, because there is a foster programs for dogs, too.  

mudpuppy

most humans seem to have children for very selfish reasons that have nothing to do with the "best interests" of the offspring.

Exactly!! Most people who deliberately bring dogs into the world DO take more care. And they should, considering how many dogs get euthanized.  

I took Kate's original post to be comparing a man we want in our lives to a dog we want in our lives. I didn't consider breeding with the man as part of the equation. So I thought it was a great analogy. It's a matter of picking "the best" whatever that means to me. I want a man who is sensitive, honest, intelligent, funny, cute, loyal, understanding, honorable and reliable. And none of that (consciously) has anything to do with breeding, because I don't want to breed. It's a tall order. But they exist, so why shouldn't I have what I want if I can?

Same with a dog. I want certain characteristics in my dogs. (Many of the same ones that I look for in a man, now that I look at it! LSTM)

And since I can date a man and get to know him before I make the plunge, to see if he aligns with my criteria, I don't care what he was bred for. I can find that out as I go along. With a dog, I have to depend on breeding to the standard of the breed.

Don't get me wrong, I love the 2 dogs that I adopted before I knew their characteristics, but owning a purebred dog IS a different experience for me. I got them, knowing that I could expect certain (attractive) breed traits to be there. And they are! It's almost like dating someone to get to know them BEFORE making the commitment.

I'm probably going to get some flak for talking about dating a dog, now... LOL 

I have to disagree with you a little bit, 4IC, but don't want to take the topic too far afield on a dog board.  In general, dog fosters do it voluntarily and out of love.  Too often, human foster children are taken in for monetary reasons and are not treated well and are not treated with love.  It's a sad, shameful situation that's heartbreaking to hear about or have to sit and listen to testimony about.  Many of these kids are warehoused in our juvenile facilities because breaking the law and ending up in a correctional facility is preferable to being raped or abused in a horrible foster home that no one is checking on because of funding cuts.  

Also, humans have education and in alot of places free birth control available to them to exercise some control over their reproductive capabilities.  Dogs don't.  Given what I've seen and heard about, I strongly believe in mandatory sterilization for certain people too!  But that's about as likely to happen as MSN for dogs. 

ETA: I am a Victim Advocate, my perspective is admittedly skewed and I do not mean to offend any wonderful foster parents out there. 

FourIsCompany

Even if kids are ill, disabled, diseased or just unwanted, SOMEONE is going to take care of them. Not so with dogs.

 As for a given foster care or institution type living, that isn't always enough.  There are also no kill shelters that will take in dogs and keep them despite the fact they have too many issues to be safely adopted out.  These dogs will go crazy living in cramped cages never experiencing a moment of silence from barking dogs till they pass.  Similarly children who aren't able to find a loving family to take them in often suffer from a stream of emotional problems because they never got to know the love, comfort, and security of a good home.  Food, a warm bed is great, but it isn't enough for humans or dogs.
 

I wouldn't choose a man that wasn't right for me and the life and the future I want...who would do that? I don't choose pets that are any of the former...either.

So that about sums it up.

Dating criterium...which might exclude those of a certain lifestyle, social ranking, etc. But gosh...don't we ALL have standards on people we date?

I don't see too many street wino's getting dates...is that elitism? What about men in prison? Child molesters? Men without a job of any kind? they were excluded from my "men to date" list when I was single..elitist?

Oh.....well!

FourIsCompany

I took Kate's original post to be comparing a man we want in our lives to a dog we want in our lives. I didn't consider breeding with the man as part of the equation. So I thought it was a great analogy. It's a matter of picking "the best" whatever that means to me. I want a man who is sensitive, honest, intelligent, funny, cute, loyal, understanding, honorable and reliable. And none of that (consciously) has anything to do with breeding, because I don't want to breed. It's a tall order. But they exist, so why shouldn't I have what I want if I can?

Same with a dog. I want certain characteristics in my dogs. (Many of the same ones that I look for in a man, now that I look at it! LSTM)

And since I can date a man and get to know him before I make the plunge, to see if he aligns with my criteria, I don't care what he was bred for. I can find that out as I go along. With a dog, I have to depend on breeding the the standard of the breed.

Don't get me wrong, I love the 2 dogs that I adopted before I knew their characteristics, but owning a purebred dog IS a different experience for me. I got them, knowing that I could expect certain (attractive) breed traits to be there. And they are! It's almost like dating someone to get to know them BEFORE making the commitment.

I'm probably going to get some flak for talking about dating a dog, now... LOL 

Thank you Carla....you got my meaning, and my intention, exactly right.