"Never to be trusted off-leash...."

I have a dog who is not supposed to be trusted off-leash.  The Alaskan Klee Kai originated from huskies, so the breeds still retains the innate drive to "RUN, RUN, RUN!" at all costs.  Having said that, Honor definitely has an excellent recall and will stay by my side if I ask her to in the dog park.  The thing to understand with these kinds of breeds is that they are bred to think independently, and to show tremendous endurance and drive.  Those of us who own such breeds respect their heritage, and understand that if the dog covets something, they may run like crazy to the goal. 

It's definitely not to say they can't be trained.  As you've noticed, many fare well in off-leash parks or in training classes.  But if you own one of these breeds, you have to be extremely conscientious to the fact that they will run with unstoppable fervor if they see something they want.  While I believe that if Honor chased something off-leash in a non-secure area, I would like to think that she would stop if I recalled her.  But I don't want to take the chance that her natural instinct and drive would override. 

I hope that all makes sense, it sounds like rambling in my head! 
 

A little background on Siberian Huskies. For over 1,000 years to possibly 3,000 years, they were never bred for obedience, recall, retrieval. They were bred for temperment and workability. The workability involved the ability and desire to run and pull a sled for hours in the coldest conditions on Earth on very little food. And to be friendly towards humans but smart enough to ignore a command to continue if they sensed danger ahead, such as the smell and sound of running water under thin ice ahead or the echoey sound of a chasm.

That being said, my dog, who is a mix of Siberian Husky and Lab has the natural desire to be in front, pulling. But I can have him walk in heel or loose leash when I want to.

Out of harness, a Husky can run between 35 and 40 miles for hour. In harness and under load, a team of 14 can run at about 16 to 20 mph on the flat, pulling a human and 50 to 100 lbs of supplies. Their natural inclination is to run. And ignoring you isn't an insult against you, it's a breed trait. I know of a Husky that won off-leash obedience awards. Let me state that again, the Husky won off-leash obedience awards. One day, with his owner and off the leash, the dog smelled something and took off and the owner never did find him. They can run at 35 to 40 mph in directions and terrain that you can't get to.

Another one that I know of got out of his yard and ran to the house of a friend, 30 miles away. The friend called about an hour after the dog got out. The dog averaged 30 mph for an hour just to say hi, so to speak.

These days, with more concentration on obedience, the breed may change. But the standard wisdom had a reason for it. They will run off and it doesn't mean that they don't like you or don't like obedience. It just means that the smell they are after is priority right now. And no one is breeding Huskies specifically for obedience. A traditional breeder is breeding for the fastest, strongest Husky that will still respond to humans as friends and a show breeder is looking for conformation. Though, I must say, the last two dog shows I watched, the Huskies were from working sled teams.

Many sight hounds (greyhounds in particular) are not to be trusted off leash because once they see something running, they zero in on it and take off, running as long as they need to to catch up to it or lose it. Their trip may take them across the street or freeway or into the next township. And they don't always pay attention to where they are. It's all about catching the prey, so they can become lost.

Pirate has days when 'his terrier is showing'. So, yes, he's allowed off-leash in secure, fenced places, but never EVER is he allowed off-leash somewhere without a fence. Would he probably come back if I called him? Yeah. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

 He's a roamer, that's all

My boys stay close and have great recall at the dog park.  But, I wouldn't risk letting them off lead out in the open. Too risky.  Too terrifying.

We practice recalls a lot, Kena has a great off-leash heel,  and can work (mostly) off leash in agility class, but I don't think I could train enough to get to the point where I'd  feel comfortable having them off lead out in the open.

Anything can happen in an instant.  I won't risk that.

Snownose once shared a video of her recall with her Husky mix, Ronin. There was the slightest hesitation on close approach and someone thought that was a broken recall. No, for a Husky, that was outstanding recall. And it is possible to have some recall, it's possible to win off-leash obedience awards involving distractions and obedience. And that one moment, when you aren't "working" for the title or the next event, zoom, see ya ...

 i think its more a guideline because SOME of the breeds mentioned are super at obedience... remember the tv series, due South? i know they probably had a lot of cuts in the filming to get the dog back into position but the huskies they used to play the part of the "wolf" was off leash the majority of the time, while running through the city for what ever purpose.

ron2

Snownose once shared a video of her recall with her Husky mix, Ronin. There was the slightest hesitation on close approach and someone thought that was a broken recall. No, for a Husky, that was outstanding recall. And it is possible to have some recall, it's possible to win off-leash obedience awards involving distractions and obedience. And that one moment, when you aren't "working" for the title or the next event, zoom, see ya ...

Yes I remember that. 

Here's a vid of some fun training with Kena.  I let them free-run and play (in a fenced area) and toss in a bit of training.  If I don't keep it fun, they don't perform.  I call him while running, I call him while playing, and I call him from stays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMz1FiDAVvA 

I've only used the recall 2 or three times out in the 'real world.'   Thankfully it worked--Kena came back at me instantly and sat in front of me.  Once was at a trail head getting ready for a sled run, and my sister let Kena and my Ex's dog out of the truck by accident.  They both bolted down the road and out out sight.  I FREAKED, and tried to back the truck up, and got it stuck in a ditch.  As I was screaming and panicking, the dogs appeared again up the road.  I called "KENA HERE!" And he ran right for me!!  And sat front!!  My Ex's dog, on the other hand, played an evil game of keep-away for 45 minutes.  She stayed just out of our reach.  She sat a few times, but as I went for here collar, she jumped back and rooed at me.  It took three strange hunters I met on the trail to get her.  She came to strangers, but not to us.

I practice recalls all the time, he never did, so a chalk that up to training.  It was like a reflex when I called him. 

He works well off lead in classes, but he still has his idiot moments.  Like in agility class, he used to take off and go solicit play from the other dogs in class, but they were very well behaved and wanted nothing to do with him. 

Ihearthuskybutts

But, I wouldn't risk letting them off lead out in the open. Too risky.  Too terrifying.  [deleted some of hers] ... 

...  but I don't think I could train enough to get to the point where I'd  feel comfortable having them off lead out in the open.

Anything can happen in an instant.  I won't risk that.

I love the way Ihearthuskybutts said this -- I think you have to also make your decision/base your 'answer' or belief on what the individual situation calls for.

 I don't like dog parks -- I won't go into that, but we don't go there, so that's not MY concern.  Billy would rather be under my armpit than anywhere on the planet.  kee would take 3 steps and collapse asleep ... she's old.  But Luna?

sheeeesh ... she's a hound mix.  Can I add to that was totally & completely untrained her first 9 months (so taking orders from a human is NOT her instant thot in addition to the above), AND her brain is somewhere north of her nose.  Yes ... it IS there ... *somewhere*.  (the brain)  But obeying to Luna is literally a "choice".  She has to stop ... think ... and DECIDE to obey.  It's not her nature.  It wasn't how she grew in those formative months.  AND she never bonded with a human til late in life.

"Never to be trusted off-leash..." -- heck, I don't trust her ON leash either! *grin* 

But, I'll add to what Ihearthuskybutts said ... I live in the city, and my house is 4 houses from a major 6 lane commercial drag.  My street is a common cut-thru to another equally busy street and altho there are many stop signs it doesn't stop someone from careening around the corner doing 70. 

Luna is never off-leash.  Even in my own backyard she is often ON a leash.  Because even after 3 years of pretty intense training, her recall when *I* need it to be good  .... isn't.  If I have to get out of here to work, I can't wait for her to decide she will or won't come ... now. 

So I simply take the high road and she's on a run line *some* times in the backyard.  That way I don't have to get upset with her ... that way I dont have to be late to work.  That way I can make sure that any time I give her a command it WILL be obeyed and she won't inadvertently reinforce her own 'bad choices'. 

If the guy who mows my lawn happens to forget and leave the gate open?  She'd be gone ... and frankly she'd be dead. 

My point is this ... there is the perfect time and opportunity to 'train' a dog in an off-leash area.  There are even some folks who have a set up where they can risk it with minimal risk and they may have enough confidence in their animal to have it work. 

It might even be with a basset beagle mix!! 

But *my* situation dictates that I'm cautious.  My suburban/majorly fast street, my position far too close to a major 6 lane (all commercial -- not a raised road but just cars on/off/bumper to bumper all going in different directions), my own personal condition as somewhat disabled and completely unable to *chase* the dog ...

PLUS ... her breed/background and pre-disposition not to listen.

"never to be trusted off-leash..." -- that's Luna.  But not JUST because of her breed.  But it's a whole package. 

I hope that made sense.  I think the issue is deeper than *just* breed.  And some of it, I think is basic practicality and the fact that some of us always err on the side of caution.  I like her to have fun ... yes.  But I like her alive ... best of all.

So what I've gathered is that sometimes it can be a personal case, and although breed does make a impact, it is not entirely impossible to teach recall, but it isn't 100% reliable.         

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Our min pin x, Sammy, will never be trusted off leash. He will start running and never stop. His recall is 0%. 

Okami

So what I've gathered is that sometimes it can be a personal case, and although breed does make a impact, it is not entirely impossible to teach recall, but it isn't 100% reliable.     

 Yes and no. Training obviously does make a difference (It's worth pointing out that the Due South dog? while they (I think there were two) worked off leash, a whole lot of those shots were on a stage, and even in the ones that weren't, there wree handlers waiting to catch him if he decided to be Creative.) But even beyond training, you have genetics. And this makes a HUGE difference.

 
There are huskies and malamutes and sighthounds that have obedience titles- even at the highest levels. Diane Bauman has put OTCHes on Afghans, IIRC. But obedience trials aren't real life- there's not small darting animals in the ring (usually), and in most of the country, trials take place in rings with at least an illusion of fencing, and with many (dog savvy) spectators to help catch a loose dog. I would say that, if they're safe with other dogs, most huskies or sighthounds would be FINE in a large fenced area like a dog park. But there's a BIG difference between a dog park- or a lure course, where the dog has something to keep their attention there and there is usually somekind of barrier around the edges- and just walking down the street with your dog off leash. In the first, you've got a better idea what's around you- you know where new dogs or new distractions will enter from, and you've got something to stop your dog if your dog DOES decide not to come. On a walk, you don't know whta's around the next corner. Is it a small furry animal that will run from your dog and turn his or her prey drive on? A plastic bag blowing in the wind that is going to remind your greyhound of the last time he went lurecoursing? The scent of a rabbit?

 Dogs are faster than people, and many of these breeds have been bred for THOUSANDS of years to concentrate on a job- running, chasing, tracking, whatever- and IGNORE whatever people are doing around them. They are SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a human on foot, and they can be out of sight in a matter of seconds, leaving you no way to track them down. It is not worth it.

The instinctive reactions that these dogs are bred for are SO deeply ingrained that it is nearly impossible to entirely eradicate them in training- even the very best trainers in the breeds will tell you that it is so. So if your desired qualities in a dog include being about to include them in outdoor activities off leash? Avoid those breeds. You might get lucky and get an individual that can be trained to be reliable off leash- but you may not. It's osmewhat dependent on your own training abilities and how creative you can be to motivate the individual dog- but if this is an important quality for you- and it is for many people- just don't do it. It isn't just a matter of persistance or using enough force or an e-collar or the right training technique- it's having the training skill to understand how to motivate the individual dog, the ability to read that dog well enough to know which techniques to use, the experience to proof the dog very heavily against distractions, and the luck to select the right dog to begin with.

There are similar breeds in most of those catagories that are bred for different jobs that included slightly more listening to people. (For example, in the huskies? Look into Eurasiers or Samoyeds- Sams did herding in addition to draft work and are a little bit more biddable; Eurasiers are a modern breed that was created from Sams and some other breeds and high trainability was one of the criteria used in selecting breeding stock. Or consider a husky mix- no shortage of them in rescue!)

A lot of people fall in love with Sibes (and Malamutes) because of the wolfy look, the independent, outgoing personality, and the wonderful athleticism of the breed. A very large portion of these people are outdoorsy, nature-loving types who really like the primitive nature and wild spirit of the dog. A significant portion of those DO NOT UNDERSTAND- your dog's desire to run has nothing to do with his love for you, dominance, or anything like that. It has to do with his genes and his nature. Loving your dog enough, being a 'pack leader', and providing him with exercise alone, will not change that.

 Feeding your dog until he is too fat to break out of a walk, however, does appear to work, as if he DOES take it into his head to bolt, you can probably catch him. (Just make sure you can afford the ACL and hip replacement surgeries.) *grump*
 

Cait (who did husky rescue for several years and gets very, very frustrated with some of hte husky people at her dog park) 

Pwca

 Dogs are faster than people, and many of these breeds have been bred for THOUSANDS of years to concentrate on a job- running, chasing, tracking, whatever- and IGNORE whatever people are doing around them. They are SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a human on foot, and they can be out of sight in a matter of seconds, leaving you no way to track them down. It is not worth it..

Absolutely. 

I think for some breeds it doesn't matter even if you have a fantastic recall.  It is a matter of speed and hard-wired behavior. A greyhound that sees something (maybe something you can't even see) and sprints after it will be a good distance away before you can blink. I worked with racing greys that were just leaving the track and I know from personal experience that the speed and acceleration is mind boggling.

At maximum acceleration, a greyhound reaches a full speed of 70 kmh within 30 metres or six strides from the boxes, traveling at almost 20 metres per second for the first 250 metres of a race.The only other animal that can accelerate faster over a short distance is a cheetah that can reach speeds of 109 kmh over 3-4 strides from a standing start.