bad experience with puppy class

I'm sorry about the roughhousing. I hope Zack is OK.

I don't know if it's normal or not, I didn't take my guys to puppy class. But I don't think you can just trust anyone, trainer or not, 100% with the safety of your dog. Because you have a little dog, you might have to be more protective of him. And that might mean making sure he doesn't get in the position of being bowled over by the larger dogs.

As for the trainer laughing, she may have been nervous. But yeah, that wasn't too cool.  

I didn't have my dogs as pups, but as far as their play behavior now, that is exactly what they do, plow into each other full speed, then chase, then wrestle.  Then the stop for a second and wait for someone to play-bow then off they go to plow into each other again.  Last night, Coke went after Kenya at full speed and actually knocked himself over so hard he yelped. Sometimes they plow into ME like I want to play and it makes me tear up, they hit so hard!  They seem to like doing this though, they do it every single day for about an hour.

Maybe the play groups need to be separated for size.  It doesn't sound like the Ridgie did anything wrong, so there's no reason to remove him or correct him for playing rough. 

The free play time  at the classes can be a bit harrowing, for sure.  The trainer at the "kindergarten" obedience class that I took Heidi to when she was 7 months old stopped having the free offleash time for the very reason you experienced.  She had a big puppy cause harm to a small puppy.  She said the liability just wasn't worth it so she stopped offering it.  What she did do was tell her "students" that they could do it but at their own risk.

In my class most of the dogs were small.  But there was one dog the size of Heidi and towards the end of the training series, we would let the two of them play off leash.  By that time, they had become buds and only wanted to play with each other...they had something in common....their size. 

I agree the trainer laughing could have been a sign of nervousness.  Or it could have been intentional to simply make light of the situation.  Either way...not cool at all.

Edited to say:  Sorry, just realized your Zack is a "he." 

Yeah, I too would worry that it could effect her socialization skills making her nervous.  But you can't restrict it for that very reason.  Find some folks that you feel comfortable having free off leash playtime so she can continue to have good experiences.  Trust your instincts too...they are always right. 

That's awful!

I didn't to puppy K with Eko, but I did with Sasha and Ivan. Our trainer had two playgroups: one for smaller pups and calm or shy big pups, and the other for energetic larger pups. Making sure that no one got overwhelmed was very important to her. Not just from an injury standpoint, but also from a socialization standpoint. She didn't want anyone bullied.

Hopefully this was a small thing in Zack's mind. It helps that it was another puppy being too rough on accident, and not an attack from a grown dog.  

Oooooo... I'm sorry that Zack got bowled over like that.  The others are right in that finding a small dog playgroup for him might be the answer.  Puppy play time at K classes can be difficult for this reason and because, sometimes the puppies are rough and sometimes they seem rough and the owner's over react.

I'm not saying that you over reacted by any means...  A RR vs little Zack is a totally different situation and they should have been separated by size.  Just being the devil's (trainer's) advocate for a moment though, is it possible that she wanted to make light of the situation for Zack?  So that he wouldn't pick up on concern and be more afraid of socialization in the future?  That is something that I would try to do - not feed into the puppy's concern/worry.

I have to agree with Liesje that this is typical puppy play behavior. Puppies teach eachother what hurts and what is acceptable or not through play and not allowing your dog to engage in rough play could potentially give him a social handicap. Have you ever seen those dogs at the dog park who take every instance offensively? That is not healthy for the dog or the other dogs around them. It seems as if allowing your dog to engage in various social interactions will better equip him to deal in the future.

If you had a child who had a bully at school would you tell them to call you everytime the bully hurts their feelings and you'll come pick them up? Or would you rather know your kid could dish it out and take it in return.

Granted I wasnt there to witness this but rarely does a dog of such a young age have outright aggression. There is a fine line between play and fight but at this age rough play is actually at its safest because hormones arnt there to get in the way. I'm not taking sides or saying anyone was out of line......just trying to offer a different perspective.

I posted a couple of vids I found on typical puppy behavior.....it REALLY looks scary but its all in good fun

These lil guys are MEAN to eachother but thats how they learn. Would you haev been less offended if the pup was closer to his size?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw2L4oABh94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMrgI3L50pc

this is how my dogs play. It looks scary but they've never hurt eachother and they love eachother a lot!

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=17329878

 My 2 cents: I would not split your dog into big puppy vs little puppy groups. Your pup needs to learn to handle the bigger dogs while he's young. I see sooo many little dogs who were not socialized well with big dogs and it's bad....fear biting, barking, aggression, etc. It's based on fear and defensive behavior.

Dog speak is dog speak and your dog needs to learn it no matter the size. Dogs do plow in to each other and roll each other around during play. If you watch carefully they will tell each other when they've had enough or when one dog went too far. They stop play, stand still, give a growl/snap and/or yelp. Well socialized dogs pick up on those things and will knock the behavior out. If the dog doesn't knock it off then it's the owners responsibility to jump in and direct their dog to something else. 

thank you all for your feedback on the situation.  Believe me, I've definitely seen dogs play, right in my house.  Zoe and Zack play so rough sometimes it's hard to believe they're playing!  They wrestle, throw each other on the ground, bared teeth and growling etc...  BUT, this ridgeback pup was MUCH larger and stronger than Zack.  40 something lbs vs 8.  I definitely want Zack to be socialized with big dogs, but from now on it will on on-leash ONLY.  I  have heard of dogs developing life-long fears due to scary incident when they were pups, and if Zack was hurt it wouldn't matter what the other dog's intentions were.  I don't know, maybe I'm just paronoid!

Here is Zack's picture from graduation, bandana and all!

Jewlieee

 My 2 cents: I would not split your dog into big puppy vs little puppy groups. Your pup needs to learn to handle the bigger dogs while he's young. I see sooo many little dogs who were not socialized well with big dogs and it's bad....fear biting, barking, aggression, etc. It's based on fear and defensive behavior.

Dog speak is dog speak and your dog needs to learn it no matter the size. Dogs do plow in to each other and roll each other around during play. If you watch carefully they will tell each other when they've had enough or when one dog went too far. They stop play, stand still, give a growl/snap and/or yelp. Well socialized dogs pick up on those things and will knock the behavior out. If the dog doesn't knock it off then it's the owners responsibility to jump in and direct their dog to something else. 

Some small dogs are made studier than others but many have very delicate builds to them.  When researching papillons I often found a sentence in the section of reasons why not to own a pap along the lines of, "Papillons usually aren't a good combination with larger dogs.  They break."  This isn't to say I haven't seen mixed dog sizes interact and live together, but there is an undeniable risk when you got an animal interacting with something 5-10x its own size.  Add to that the fact at dog parks you don't always know the temperament of the animals your dealing with.  Any time you socialize your dog, or have two dogs together for that matter, there is always the potential for something bad to happen, and it all depends on the risks your willing to take.  Personally I'm not willing to take the added risk just so my little dog isn't seen as a wimp by other dog owners.

What a cutie - that's a great picture! 

jenns

Zack flipped completely over and landed on his back. He was very visibly shaken up, tail between his legs, and the trainer ran over and picked him up but was laughing about it.

Most folks have sad that roughhousing is just part of puppy play.  That's true...its just a part of growing up and learning how to deal with others.

One thing that struck me here is that the trainer ran over and picked up Zack.  That, IMO might not have been a good idea to do assuming Zack was not injured, but only shaken up (and forgive me because I don't want to minimize the experience he had).  Zack wasn't given the opportunity to deal with the experience on his own. His confidence cannot grow if he is removed from an adverse situation without first figuring out what he should do on his own, right?

I know you are nervous, and you know that transfers...that's one thing.  But, let him experience the play to see how he comes out of it.  These are his life lessons.

Now, having said all that, if I had seen a RR dragging my little puppy around by the neck, I would definately put a stop to that.

I apologize, I didnt know there were prior social issues and that Zach had already had a playmate at home to test himself with. He sure is a cutey pie in his bandana and I also think you have a realsitic view and are not coddeling him as much as I first thought......please dont take offense to that but you just never know so I was trying to cover all bases.

I agree with the above statement that the pick-up was not the best way to handle it but everyone gets anxious in such situtuations. Well I'm glad lil Zach gets plenty of playtime!

 i agree with Co - yet again- i dont blame or defend the trainer for laughing..... i am the worst when it comes to laughing at horrible situations that have passed... i am the sort that can laugh heartily at a close call just seconds after it happened. my oldest son fell in the river - i was 8 months pregnant too - i jumped off the bank after him(this was in early march too and the river was COLD) and even though my son was shivering and screaming his fool head off i was laughing because i couldnt think of anything else to do... this guy standing nearby offered me a hand out of the river and was looking at me in a sorta lopsided manner like i was nutty.. i guess i was? but i COULD laugh because i had my son, and we were both safe.

anyway thats just naming one situation where i have chosen laughter over anxiety... however i do agree that the trainer shouldnt have picked him up. he IS a small dog but he needs to cope and not expect you to protect him from EVERY big dog, harmless or otherwise. Amber, i have discovered, is terrified of large dogs now. she didnt used to be. she grew up with collies, dobermans, GSDs and horses and cows etc... but the three years she spent away from me (one fight with a labrador and these people wanted to get rid of her in a hurry) at first we had a close call with the bulldogs because Amber wanted to be confrontational, but i've noticed she is highly reactive to a big dog moving towards her even if they want to play. This shepherd puppy cavorts, frolics, play bows, runs, and rolls over wanting to play and Amber just stiffens, growls, and trembles and tries to hide between my feet. she was never like this before. i could always trust that she'd be a little spitfire and play as hard as any large breed. she was tiny when i brought her home. my other two dogs (dobiemix and collie/sheltie were both over the age of two).....she isnt playful and dog friendly any more.... i dont know what happened to her in those three years and i probably dont WANT to know....
 as a pup i let her play with the other dogs as long as everyone would settle down when i told them to. she got flattened a couple of times but always got up to play harder and faster and eventually learned to avoid big feet. i know she is a different breed than yours. she's a stocky short legged jack russell and acted like she's made of concrete when she was a puppy.

He is SOOO adorable!  What a scarey experience. I think the trainer didn't want to turn it into a scene and she probably sees it all the time and is kind of desensitized to it, know what I mean?  I know my dogs have a considerable size difference (Sophie is 68 pounds and Cruiser is 34) and they get really rough when they play, rolling each other around and just being rough all around.  I might not think anything of it if I saw it in a class either.  I've never been to a puppy training class, but I wonder if free play is the best idea with pups that may not know recall yet?  With Sophie I can call her off easily if things are looking rough, Cruiser is getting there, but with a group of dogs just starting their training that would be nerve wracking.