Whoa, there is usually a underlying reason......

By the same token, I don't think one can necessarily blame the child automatically either. Many dog bites are provoked, yes, whether intentionally or unintentionally. All dogs (or any animal) CAN, of course, bite.  However, I don't think that biting a face, particularly to the point of needing stitches, is normal. It almost sounded like some wounds are in the mouth, which is even more bizarre.

I don't think one can necessarily blame the dog, but I don't think blame can automatically be pointed at the owners either.  And having a child young does not always make a person a horrible, irresponsible adult either.

 I do feel for the dog, who I doubt is getting appropriate interaction. But without knowing the entire story, I don't feel it should necessarily be considered just a misunderstood housepet and passed off to another family.  

grab01

By the same token, I don't think one can necessarily blame the child automatically either. Many dog bites are provoked, yes, whether intentionally or unintentionally. All dogs (or any animal) CAN, of course, bite.  However, I don't think that biting a face, particularly to the point of needing stitches, is normal. It almost sounded like some wounds are in the mouth, which is even more bizarre.

I don't think one can necessarily blame the dog, but I don't think blame can automatically be pointed at the owners either.  And having a child young does not always make a person a horrible, irresponsible adult either.

 I do feel for the dog, who I doubt is getting appropriate interaction. But without knowing the entire story, I don't feel it should necessarily be considered just a misunderstood housepet and passed off to another family.  

Yes, having a child at a young age can happen to many females.....but, one must look at what happened after that..(pregnant at 14, pregnant at 17....and so on) ...my point being some folks here thought euthanizing this dog was justified.....not even knowing what kind of responsibility there was going on.......before ya kill the dog make sure it was really the dog's fault.......which, at this point, I hardly believe anymore.........

However, irresponsible behavior in one's dating life doesn't necessarily reflect on their ability to be responsible pet owners.  (I should note that I've had NO children whatsoever. Plus I'm old So it's not a 'stick up for people in like situations' thing) I think that most everyone has made stupid dating choices in their lives, and particularly as teens, I'd hope no one would judge their abilities as pet owners well into their adulthood for that kind of thing.

 I think the dog needs to be evaluated by a behaviorist or trainer before its future is decided. I just see far too many dogs with aggression issues passed off to other people to deal with because their original owners couldn't take that responsibility on themselves

grab01

However, irresponsible behavior in one's dating life doesn't necessarily reflect on their ability to be responsible pet owners.

Irresponsible dating choices?....Pumping out several kids at a young age is "Poor Dating Choices"?

Ok, not going more personal on this woman.......still, people judge the dog without having a clue about anything....even to the point of isolating this dog....and some folks think euthanasia is a good idea.....wow........sad stories all the time.....for the dogs that is......don't judge the people, but kill the dogs.....good one.....

As I've said, I don't think the dog should be blindly euthanized. But it should be evaluated by someone who will know what to look for before it is passed off to another family.

And while I most certainly wouldn't have had children as a teen,  I don't think that one ought to be judged on that years and years later in regards to their dog ownership. I know older adults who shouldn't be having children, and yet do, and they are otherwise fully responsible in the rest of their life choices. Their pets are vetted and cared for, their bills paid on time, and they work in fairly notable fields. Which does give one a 'what the heck ARE they thinking' moment. It doesn't mean that THIS woman is responsible, but we essentially know nothing about her other than the age in which she had children.

huskymom

Tolak

denise m

AuroraLove

So dog attacks are unfortunately a common story we hear on the news. Typically if you look hard enough you can find a reason, wether it be provoked or not. I've found a majority of attacks occur with male unaltered dogs. dogs who have health issues or jusr plain irresponsible owners but thsi story is pretty shocking.......

 

Although I agree that more often than not a 'reason' can be found for dog attacks I am also of the belief that dogs are animals and therefore are unpredictable by nature. Sometimes there is simply no explanation. To state that ALL dog attacks can be explained, suggests that we as humans have the ability to 100% understand how the dog brain works. Tragic story all round.

 

 

  My thoughts exactly.  We can not predict how a human that we know closely will react in any & all given situations, and we have the ability to communicate much better human to human.  The communications between humans & dogs are much more difficult, there may be signs that the family missed here, or that anyone might miss.  Treat all dogs as what they are, animals descendant from wolves,  and handle yourself accordingly.

 

 

I think dogs are much easier to understand than humans.  Just because we are humans ourselves, doesn't make us an open and shut case.  Human beings are the least instinctual animals on the planet.    We do things constantly which are against the laws of nature.  Humans also have the ability to lie.  As far as I know no other animal on the planet can do that.  Dog's almost never act unnaturally, and in that way we can almost always figure out what the trigger of such an attack was, even if it has to be as broad as past treatment.  

  Sounds like someone needs to be socialized more.

  Only joking, couldn't pass that one up.  I agree with humans in general doing things that are against the laws of nature, but I do have an easier time predicting how a family member or someone else I know closely will react in a given situation than a dog I know closely.  

Well, I'm certainly glad that I'm not the only one who did some mental math.  Yeah, I'm old and I waited until I was married to start having babies, and frankly, I think societies open acceptance of "anything goes" just feeds the downward spiral of our national morality.

That said, yeah, this woman has made some pretty poor choices, including living with a man outside of marriage and by so doing, teaching her daughter {s} that marriage is not a necessary commitment.  I don't agree with that.  I'm an old fart I know, but still........once upon a time marriage actually meant something.  I was a single mom as a young woman and my soon to be husband often spent the night, but by golly he was up way before the kids and dressed and knocking at the door so that they thought he came over to see THEM in the morning, and they didn't know that he'd actually been snuggled up with me all night.  My ex played some dirty, nasty custody games and I didn't have the strength for another custody battle, but I also didn't want my sons to think it was ok to live with someone outside of marriage.  That's the old fart in me I guess.

Given that, it's easy to jump to the conclusion that based on her history of poor choices, this gal isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and may be continueing to make poor and irresponsible choices.  But, we don't know that for sure.  Nor do we know that the dog is evil and needs to be euthed.

Before anything is done, that dog needs to be evaluated by a behavioralist and THEN the determination made whether or not he can be rehomed safely.

FWIW, the PA who treated my dog bite wanted to suture the one in the back of my knee and she DID steri strip it and use some sticky stuff to make the steri strips stay on better.  And, when I went for my rabies vaccine at the big hospital the next day, the doc was upset at even the steri strips.  Well, I knew that wasn't right.......but the PA apparently did not.  You don't close a deep puncture and trap the bacteria inside it.  And I know from experience with my youngest DH that you don't suture ANYTHING in the mouth......the germs just get in there and cause one heck of a problem.  Being the child is a girl and that the bites were on her face, the doc was probably trying to minimize scarring, but I'm guessing that an infected area is going to scar more severely.  You don't suture dog bites unless NOT doing so would be life threatening or cause severe danger of loss of use.....there is just too much danger of serious infection.   And even with all the super drugs out there, according to the PA and the doc, the drug of choice for a dog bite is still high dose augmatin.  So why risk closing the wounds?

Now that I've gotten totally off topic......before anything is done, the dog needs to be evaluated by a behavioralist and THEN the determination made whether or not he can be rehomed safely.

I wonder if the dog gave any warning growls, but the girl persisted.  It isn't hard to do.  When I was about her age we had Goliath, a lab/sheperd/collie.  And one evening he went under my parents' bed.  I followed.  I remember him growling at me, but i continued on under anyway, and i got bit in the face, pretty bad, but not bad enough to warrant a hospital visit.  Goliath and I BOTH got in trouble lol, me for not listening to the warning he gave me and persisting, and him for biting me lol.

I really wonder if there was a warning given, i haven't seen many dogs who don't give a warning

purple chaps

Is it possible that if the dog has an ear infection or something that if the childs voice/whistle hit a certin pitch it caused him pain?  His way of stoping what was causing his pain was to stop the noise perhaps?

 

A woman I work with says the dog she rescued (not sure if from the SPCA or just a stray or what) "goes crazy when the phone rings".  I thought okay you've got a hyper dog or somthing...didn't really realize what she meant.   Nope, the dog goes NUTS.  When the phone rings I guess it's like Jeckyll and hyde with this dog.  Fine as long as the phone isn't ringing, but if it is, he actually tries to ATTACK aanything within biting distance.  One day it was her 19 year old daughter's foot.   Broke the skin, but wasn't horrible.  No stitches involved.   My response to her one day was, "I would be taking the dog to the vet, rule out anything medical, ear infection etc.  Change the ringer on the phone to something differnt to see if that changes anything.  And if still nothing changes a behavourist may need to be called as a last resort before re homing the dog or having him euthed.  I'd hate to see it happen that way, but if the dog is going after people when teh phone rings there is something wrong.

 

You brought up an excellent point - one possibility is that the dog is noise phobic for that particular noise because something unpleasant is associated with that particular noise and it has become a trigger, and another possibility is that the dog has a severe inner ear infection, or that the child was ticking him off all along and he just caved to the pressure.  That seems not so likely  in this case, but since rage syndrome is so rare, and this is a mutt, I'd be inclined to check out the first two possibilities by hiring a behaviorist.  In any case, it's irresponsible to rehome or euthanize a dog without doing that - since the likelihood is that he could be triggered again somehow if nothing is done.  What I know is that there is ALWAYS a reason for aggression, even if it is involuntary.  It doesn't happen in a vacuum - even a neurological event is a reason.

As to the issue of warnings, most dogs do - however, some dogs, especially Pit Bulls and other fighting breeds, do not.  They tend to just erupt quickly, and even if there is a turned whisker, or some other predictor, it's often too fast for humans, or even dogs, to see.  That's why such breeds are often accused of attacking for no reason. The simple answer is that they grew into their genetic makeup and decided not to like other dogs one day - and boom.  Which is why I limit Pits to age 8 months in my play groups, and I advise owners not to think that the pup who is very social will always be that way. These are dogs that are great companions for people, but they must be people who understand the breed thoroughly and can manage such a dog.  (Just like a lot of other breeds!)

spiritdogs

one possibility is that the dog is noise phobic for that particular noise because something unpleasant is associated with that particular noise and it has become a trigger, and another possibility is that the dog has a severe inner ear infection, or that the child was ticking him off all along and he just caved to the pressure.  That seems not so likely  in this case, but since rage syndrome is so rare, and this is a mutt, I'd be inclined to check out the first two possibilities by hiring a behaviorist.  In any case, it's irresponsible to rehome or euthanize a dog without doing that - since the likelihood is that he could be triggered again somehow if nothing is done.  What I know is that there is ALWAYS a reason for aggression, even if it is involuntary.  It doesn't happen in a vacuum - even a neurological event is a reason.

On point, as usual. And that is why we, even though we are trying not to judge the humans and truly empathize with their plight, can't help but wonder about it. As erudite and knowledgable as this forum is, we know that bites happen for a specific reason. Accidents also happen, too. The dog could have bitten by accident. I've had tooth scrapes on my knuckles from playing with Shadow in the yard. We zigged or zagged at the same time and a tooth would get me because he had his mouth open to breath.

The time that Shadow got my goddaughter, we're still not convinced that it was a retaliatory or intentional bite. It barely broke the skin and he could have been playing. She is afraid of big dogs and might have panicked and drew away, causing a toothing. She was too scared to remember the exact order of events. And I and the other adults were out of the room. And she had previously spent an hour or so alone with the dog and cat. And I am still responsible. An accidental lapse in attention. I could tell that Shadow was just as scared as she was. They could have very well taken her to the hospital and it would have been reported as a bite and he would have taken the last walk. But momma grew up with dogs and knew how to handle it. A few minutes under running water took care of it. The following weekend, goddaughter spent the weekend with us. Here she is with the big scary dog.

And while we can infer, in the case in question in this thread about that young mother not having good judgement I can't help but say that ignorance does not alleviate responsibility. That is, she might not have known that you never leave children and dogs unsupervised, but that doesn't negate the responsibility. Unfair? Maybe. Being a parent is not about being fair.

I also agree with Snownose. Humans make mistakes and dogs pay the price.

 WHOA.

This thread has gotten really mean spirited and judgmental. Which is ridiculous, and has nothing to do with the dog situation. I know good and bad dog owners from every socioeconomic and educational background. Well, maybe not every. I don't hang out with the jet set.

I don't think dog related stupidity has anything to do with how old one is upon procreating.  And at least the woman has a heart! She's trying to find the dog a home. Even if you disagree with that, she at least doesn't view the dog as a "thing" to be disposed of. Unlike many of my educated and "appropriate" acquaintances and neighbors.

- - -

As to dogs with poor temperaments ...  there are a lot of them out there. One is laying next to me, and her name is Sasha. I have a kid, and we do fine, but Sasha is not a dog that I would ever place in a family with kids. She's anxious and nervous. Loving, but defensive. She's a nut. I adore her and she has taught me so so much about dogs. And I know, without a doubt, that if a kid grabbed Sasha by the neck and didn't let go, Sasha would freak out and bite. Not maul, but human faces are delicate.

I work very hard to make sure the above scenario doesn't happen. Sasha has given my daughter a warning nip - no damage - which I knew was MY fault for not being on top of things. My daughter has had dog safety pounded into her little brain since before she could speak.

- - -

One last little rant. Kids should NOT be allowed to manhandle dogs with good temperaments. Why? Same reason you don't let a two year old dash across the street even though there aren't any cars present. Being rough with dogs is an unsafe behavior. There are dogs who will take it, just as there are streets that are momentarily quiet, but a kid should not not not grow up thinking that hugging, chasing, grabbing, or taunting a dog is ok.

My friends who have bomb proof dogs and kids? Those kids are so unsafe around dogs that it makes my skin crawl sometimes. The kids have grown up with tolerant dogs, and see no problems running up to a strange dog and grabbing it.

Eko is very tolerant. He's a gem. My daughter is still not allowed to handle him roughly, hug or squeeze him, etc. She can cuddle next to him, stroke him, and enjoy his sweetness, but the fact that he'll take abuse doesn't mean she gets to dish it out.
 

Dog_ma

Eko is very tolerant. He's a gem. My daughter is still not allowed to handle him roughly, hug or squeeze him, etc. She can cuddle next to him, stroke him, and enjoy his sweetness, but the fact that he'll take abuse doesn't mean she gets to dish it out.

And that's how I was raised. BTW, my mother got married at 17 and I was born when she was 18. But she and other family taught me how to be around dogs. Yes, one can have a bomb-proof dog. And stil get your fanny paddled if you misbehave or treat the dog roughly.

Dog_ma

I don't think dog related stupidity has anything to do with how old one is upon procreating. 

That really is debatable......responsibility is imortant in every aspect of one's life......

A relative of ours who recently shipped out went to college, is in the nuclear program and seems responsible all the way around.....now, before he shipped out he stayed here and invited his college buds....so, we had one Navy guy, one Army guy, one cop and one highschool football coach.......sounds pretty responsible....right.....not really so......I know these guys a little better and when the 20 something, video game playing and indulging in some alcoholic drinks mentality engages......responsibilty goes out the door....they get loud and I really didn't think that it would be a good idea for them to be in contact with my dogs......something could go wrong......but, that is just my thinking.....

All I am trying to say is......the dog got the blame right off the bat and I look a little deeper......that's all.....how a person approaches the reproductive situation tells me a lot about responsibility.....

I agree with you, dog_ma.

The thing that confuses me about everyone talking about how she had a kid when she was young or whatever...didn't it say she delivered @ age 14 and is now 27? I think a lot of maturation goes on in that time period. I don't have a child but from age 19-22 i have changed a WHOLE lot. I just have a hard time judging someone by who they were 13 years ago.

RidgebackGermansShep

I agree with you, dog_ma.

The thing that confuses me about everyone talking about how she had a kid when she was young or whatever...didn't it say she delivered @ age 14 and is now 27? I think a lot of maturation goes on in that time period. I don't have a child but from age 19-22 i have changed a WHOLE lot. I just have a hard time judging someone by who they were 13 years ago.

So, why didn't you have 3 kids by the time you were 19?