Just heard an interesting breakdown on where ...

tashakota

That's right.  They can.  But if they don't have the desire to face the debt once they get out, they won't.  And only the educated will realize the benefits of facing that debt.  It's a vicious circle that starts with kids in grade school.  Not college.  The chicken or the egg, I guess.

Is it the kid that doesn't want to learn?  Or the teacher that can't teach?  Or the school that doesn't have the right materials for the teacher to teach?  Or the parents who don't encourage the child to study and learn?  Or the parent's lack of education or working multiple jobs to pay off debts and put food on the table, who are so busy they hardly see their kids?  Where does it start and how do we fix it? 

You bring up some valid points.

In the case of my cousin, both parents worked during his school years.......he was brought up to do well in school and there was never any real doubt that he would go to college......it was branded into his brain ever since he was old enough to understand what learning and school meant.....some parents are not cut out to be good parents and just let their children drift.....who's fault is that?

The Government's fault?

I was just trying to point out that everybody has the opportunity......in one of your posts you made it sound like that only rich kids have a chance....

snownose

tashakota

That's right.  They can.  But if they don't have the desire to face the debt once they get out, they won't.  And only the educated will realize the benefits of facing that debt.  It's a vicious circle that starts with kids in grade school.  Not college.  The chicken or the egg, I guess.

Is it the kid that doesn't want to learn?  Or the teacher that can't teach?  Or the school that doesn't have the right materials for the teacher to teach?  Or the parents who don't encourage the child to study and learn?  Or the parent's lack of education or working multiple jobs to pay off debts and put food on the table, who are so busy they hardly see their kids?  Where does it start and how do we fix it? 

You bring up some valid points.

In the case of my cousin, both parents worked during his school years.......he was brought up to do well in school and there was never any real doubt that he would go to college......it was branded into his brain ever since he was old enough to understand what learning and school meant.....some parents are not cut out to be good parents and just let their children drift.....who's fault is that?

The Government's fault?

I was just trying to point out that everybody has the opportunity......in one of your posts you made it sound like that only rich kids have a chance....

And I agree, everyone does.  But I was answering the "who will be running the country if we don't educate our children?" question.  The answer is most likely those that can afford to easily go to school.  I knew people in college that could afford to be there and still didn't get a decent education.  That's not the college's fault, it's the kid's.  But at least they had the chance to get there.  Many don't or don't think they can.

As for your cousin, he was educated by his parents to go to college.    Was he and his parents the norm? Maybe, maybe not though. 

I have 3 siblings, 2 sisters and a brother.  My brother went to trade school, his wife has not attended college.  Me and my sisters all graduated with BS and they got their PhD and Masters (guess I'm the lazy one ).  My brother has a daughter.  I can only hope that he instills in her a desire to go to school.  My brother went to college and flunked out.  He has some learning issues so not surprising.  My parents could have set him adrift and told him to suck it up and grow up.  Instead they made him move home and pay rent while attending a local school.  My dad helped him get a job at the same company he works for and he is doing ok now.  Had he been set adrift, I have no idea what would have happened.

I don't think my BF's parents went to college.  Yet he did.  His sister is not doing well in the local community college.  His family does not have a lot of money and he is still paying off his school loans.  It's a tough thing and a tough cycle to break. 

My statement is only meant that it's easier for kids with parents that are well off, to get to school and to even want to go to school.

And with the way college costs are rising, along with the cost of living, yet pay increases are stagnant at 3%, well, it won't be long before only the wealthy CAN afford to go. 
 

snownose

who's fault is that?

The Government's fault?

Of course it is the governments fault silly.  Don't you know it takes a village to raise a child.

The collective.

The goverment.

It's the governments job to install the morals and values appropriate for children.  OF course those are the morals and values that the government thinks are appropriate.

Gee.  Where have I heard that before???

Oops,  I better duck and run for cover before the sniper fire starts.

tashakota

Me and my sisters all graduated with BS

Do you know how open you left yourself with that statement. 

I must resist!!!!!

Everything bad is the government's fault, everything no one wants to do themselves is the government's responsibility.  THIS is the mentality that scares me about who will be running our country in the future.  And guess where a lot of these people get these ideas?  Government schools.

tashakota

My statement is only meant that it's easier for kids with parents that are well off, to get to school and to even want to go to school.

There is no doubt that it is easier for kids with rich parents....most of them don't have to work a part time job, I am sure.......but, that doesn't mean it's impossible for the not so wealthy person.......just a little tougher, does that mean the average person should just give up then? And then, perhaps the kid that had it a little harder might enjoy success a little more?

Maybe, the kids that get scholarships based on athletic ability should not get that.....I mean that is way too easy....right....

snownose

Maybe, the kids that get scholarships based on athletic ability should not get that.....I mean that is way too easy....right....

Great point!  Many of the athletes who attend on sports scholarships would not have been able to go to college at all without them.  They are getting a chance to better themselves, even if they are using sports to do that.  I didn't come from a wealthy family, by any means.  I grew up in a modest home with hard-working parents who didn't make a ton of money, and I was still able to go to college.  My brother chose not to go to college, but to pursue a career as an auto mechanic.  He makes more money than I do now!

It's not really a matter of whose parents can or can't afford to send their kids  to college or who does or doesn't take out loans.  The point I was trying to make - and probably not doing a very good job of it - is that education always seems to be at the bottom of the priority list and whenever states get into a financial bind, schools are always one of the first things that take the huge budget cuts.  Education doesn't start with  college admission ... it starts in kindergarten. In CA, the public schools just took a $4 billion cut.  My school district (which isn't all that huge - about 7 elementary schools, 3 jr. high schools, 1 high school and 1 continuation high) just had $4 million jerked away. I was just thinking that if this trend continues, will there be anybody qualified to get into a good college?

Joyce

fuzzy_dogs_mom

My school district (which isn't all that huge - about 7 elementary schools, 3 jr. high schools, 1 high school and 1 continuation high) just had $4 million jerked away. I was just thinking that if this trend continues, will there be anybody qualified to get into a good college?

How much it hurts the education depends on how much waste there was in the budget before.  I wonder how much unnecessary stuff they could cut.

 You know for at least 30 years schools have been crying for more and more money and stating that the kids will get a better education if they were just better funded.  Well tax payers have shelling out more and more money and guess what, the standard of learning hasn't gone up at all.  If anything it has gone down.  Well tax payers are tired of it.  They want to see some return in the tax money that spend.

 Maybe vouchers would be a good idea.  That would force public schools to provide better education otherwise parents will pull their kids out and the schools will lose funding.  Put some competition into the mix.

timsdat

Maybe vouchers would be a good idea.  That would force public schools to provide better education otherwise parents will pull their kids out and the schools will lose funding.  Put some competition into the mix.

Vouchers would be a good idea......competition would benefit the education system, imo.......

timsdat

 Maybe vouchers would be a good idea.  That would force public schools to provide better education otherwise parents will pull their kids out and the schools will lose funding.  Put some competition into the mix.

Competition would definitely be a good thing.

fuzzy_dogs_mom

whenever states get into a financial bind, schools are always one of the first things that take the huge budget cuts. 

polarexpress

So the question is: when something has to go, what do you think should be cut instead of education? Should the state stop vaccinating children? cut their health care altogether? Maybe stop feeding people?or giving them a place to live?

 

 

One place to start might be with the obscene salaries and perks the legislators keep giving themselves.  And if we keep cutting  teachers and programs to the extent we have been, at some point there won't be anybody with enough "smarts" to man a police or fire department anyway.

Joyce

I think are a lot of people who do not want the government funding certain programs, but would bend over backwards by giving of their time and their money to support those very same programs or help those very same people through churches or private organizations. 

Like, say you lose $10 on your way home from somewhere.  When you get home you realize it is gone.  You gripe for a little bit, but then forget about it.  But if I were to take that same $10 from your wallet or purse you would never forget and be upset with me for a very long time.  If you had given that same $10 to a program to help people, you would feel good about it.

perhaps he lets those in need always be with us so that we will get the benefits from sacrificing and showing compassion. Could it be so that we can understand compassion by reaching out to them. However, I don't think it is compassionate to say, "Elect me and I will take your money to help the poor." Taking someone else's money and giving it to the poor isn't compassion. It is robbing the people of the understanding that it is their job to reach out to the less fortunate. I think it is a band-aid placed on the guilt of ignoring the poor. "Let the politicians deal with and I don't have to feel guilt or even get near the problem."

But here is the tragedy. The government never solves problems. It just creates a bigger mess. Even when it reaches out to the less fortunate, it hurts them. Think of the massive welfare society filled with unwed mothers that LBJ's "Great Society" created. Did the government help these people crawl out of poverty or did it put them into urban cages and punish them if they formed a traditional family?

And education.  I thing that is really messed up.  Here is a long little thing that my dad wrote about it.

"Governments takes over and then they do an inferior job.

I have been a government employee my whole adult life. I know how governments operate. On the other hand, my academic field is Business Administration. So I have a feel for how the private sector works.

Let's take education. Someone might say, "Well kids need to be taught to read and write." True. So we have turned that job over to the public schools. We don't want people who can't read.

Well, the person who won't read is no better off than the person who can't read. Did you know that almost 50% of people who graduate from college never read another book for the rest of their lives? Why? The government schools have taught them to read and to hate doing it. I asked my college Juniors and Seniors the other day how many of them don't like to read. I would bet that at least 75% of them said that they hated reading. I then asked the 25% that like reading if they developed their love of reading from what they read in school. Except for one kid who was homeschooled, everyone of them said it was the things they read outside the education environment that gave them their love for reading.

I tell my students this. "You don't hate reading. You hate reading what you have been forced to read for the last 14-16 years." I then tell them that I love playing sports where size is an advantage but hate sports where skill is needed. Because I have a lot of size and absolutely no skill. So I was a killer basketball player but a total dork when it came to baseball. Now what would happen if year after year in school, starting in first grade and going all the way through college, I had to take classes in "sports." However, all these classes had us play was baseball. When I was a senior in college, if someone asked me if I liked sports, I would say, "Absolutely not. I am never going to play sports again for the rest of my life. I hate sports." Now do I actually hate sports? No, I hate baseball.

That's the way it is with reading. Students don't hate reading. They hate reading all the boring stuff we throw at them that is totally irrelevant to their life. So here is what I make my students do. I force them to find a well written book (meaning understandable, not "sophisticated";) on something relevant to what they actually care about. During the semester, we come together and discuss the books. The most amazing thing happens. They start to enjoy reading.

I have students say that my class makes their parents freak out. For years, the kid said how much they hated reading. Then, after my class, the parent asks what they want for Christmas and the kid gives his parent a reading list. Wow, what happened. They found out that they actually didn't hate to read. They actually loved reading things that are relevant to their lives and which are not written by someone who sounds like he or she swallowed a dictionary.

Until college, we opted out of the education system. Guess what. Our children love to read. All four of them. Not only that, the two that are in college are doing very well (if you call 4.0's, scholarships, dean's lists, highest average in classes, etc. very well). Here is the unique part about it. Our kids have never spent much time in formal "schooling." In fact, I would bet that our kids spend less time sitting down and doing school work than their friends do on homework after they have gone to school for six hours.

So let's give the government more money for education ? Let's turn the health care system over to them ? It's like going to a restaurant and ordering French fries. The waiter comes out and says, "I am sorry sir, we burnt your French fries so to compensate for our mistake, we gave you a double order." What's worse than burnt French fries? A double order of burnt French fries."