My pup search continues Need breeders info

mollymoo

If you are a reputable breeder how often to you have to have to have genetic testing done on your breeding stock? 

Genetic tests are a one time thing.  The genes don't change.

Now tests for certain conditions are another,  Hips elbows and eyes come to mind.

mollymoo

What does generic testing involve? Cost per animal?

Completely depends on the breed and tests done.  It is not a one size fits all. 

An example, VWD is something that can occur in shelties but not every breeding sheltie needs to be tested.  It is one of the simple inheritance problems.  If a dogs parents were tested clear of VWD then it isn't necessary to test the offspring as there is no possible way for them to get it.  You can also breed a carrier dog to a clear dog and not worry about any pups having the problem as the gene needs to come from both parents for there to be a problem. 

Also all tests aren't genetic in nature, genetic markers have not been discovered yet for all conditions.  Hip problems are one,  they aren't exactly sure what causes it.  A hip xray is used to see what condition the parents hips are in but that isn't a 100% guarantee that an offspring won't have any problems.

mollymoo

When you have new puppies and so many are classified as show quality pups we`ll say the cost is 1000.00 why do the remainder of pups that qualify as only pet quality pups also coast 1000.00?

Different breeders do different things.  One thing though is that no one can guarantee that a puppy will be show quality at 8 weeks old.  Some charge more, others will allow you another puppy if the one doesn't turn out to be a good show prospect, others will sell you a show prospect but you must leave the dog intact and show it if it shows promise, even other breeders will hold on to puppies until that are at least 6 months old to see of they show promise.  Just depends on the way the breeder has found things work best for them. 

 

Kaiser's breeder tests all of her puppies for a Factor VII deficient gene because it's a problem in the Klee Kai breed.  It's done with a cotton swab from what I've read, but I couldn't tell you the cost.  There are other tests that she recommends that the dogs get as they get a bit older (thyroid, for example).

For the most part, Eileen prices all of the dogs the same when they are puppies.  Some dogs, like Kaiser, are discounted slightly because they don't conform to breed standards from the get-go (Kaiser's tail is a little short).  She offers "rebates" after the breed quality exam is done between the ages of 8 and 10 months -- if the dog ends up not meeting the breed standard in some way, shape or form you get a spay/neuter refund.  You also get a refund if the dog ends up testing positive for one of the genetic issues.  So in the long run, a "pet quality" dog will end up costing less (with refunds) than a show or breeding quality dog.

Each breeder makes their own rules.  Ultimately if you don't like how one breeder runs his/her business, you just need to find another one.

mollymoo

When you have new puppies and so many are classified as show quality pups we`ll say the cost is 1000.00 why do the remainder of pups that qualify as only pet quality pups also coast 1000.00?

Beware of breeders who advertise that puppies are "show quality" or "pet quality," most really good breeders have buyers lined up for the first and second pick each sex before the litter is born.  In addition, a breeder will discuss, in great depth, the qualities that make the puppy a potential show prospect or not.  There are so many things that may not turn out with a show prospect that for even an experienced breeder deciding what puppy to keep or place in a show home in a game of chance.  Any breeder who says they can tell a show quality puppy (especially when the puppy's parents are not champions) at a very young age is conning you.

GoldenAC

Beware of breeders who advertise that puppies are "show quality" or "pet quality," most really good breeders have buyers lined up for the first and second pick each sex before the litter is born.  In addition, a breeder will discuss, in great depth, the qualities that make the puppy a potential show prospect or not.  There are so many things that may not turn out with a show prospect that for even an experienced breeder deciding what puppy to keep or place in a show home in a game of chance.  Any breeder who says they can tell a show quality puppy (especially when the puppy's parents are not champions) at a very young age is conning you.

     Interesting. Do you breed yourself? I can tell a pet quality pup right off the bat, around 6 weeks - sometimes sooner if it's apparent the pup has an obviously snippy muzzle or poor tail carriage/set. Those defects tend to show up quite early on & stand out like a sore thumb. Temperament is also a definer of pet quality - more submissive pups are apparent @ 4-5 weeks and they are not suitable for a breeding program. There are some pups, while still in the whelping box, who stand out with exceptional round bone, nice full muzzles & then go on to have superior structure/temperament, nose orientation, intelligence. I'll mark these as potential show, field or breeding quality (and lol, yes, they are out of sire/dam who are not show CHs - they're not even show bred). And you can believe that is no con. I do not often have homes lined up for my pups, the most I have is interest, because I don't even take deposits before a litter is on the ground. Interested parties don't always choose to purchase a pup from you! Waiting list is not an indicator of a good breeder, and ther eis nothing, I mean absolutely nothing wrong with advertising pups as pet/show quality ...

     Regarding the health testing, it's a one time deal. I don't know what cost has to do with finding a reputable breeder, but here goes - if you get patellas/hips done together, it's about $150 for x-rays and another $50 for OFA certification. Cardiac cost me a whopping $15 for certification but the Vet visit was $60. I also do thyroid every few years during routine checkups but do not choose to do the OFA certs. T3 T4 thyroid tests are about $60-70. *All* my dogs have had patellas palpated for luxation during routine Vet visits, so that doesn't cost me any extra. Keep in mind the health of the bloodline depends more on the breeder's ethics/common sense than OFA tests.     

ETA: On the issue of pricing, it's quite personal for each breeder. If you don't feel comfortable paying $1000 for pet quality, then don't. But I can tell you that just because the pup is not show/breedign quality and will go on to a pet home does not mean the breeder placed any less sweat, tears, or time on that pup. It recieved the same exact care, socilization, food & is out of the same parents as the show quality pup.
     I know breeders who actually sell pet quality pups fore MORE than what their show prospects go for, since they place the show qualities on co ownerships to friends in the breed. Plus they know that a championship on that pup is free advertising for their kennel ... so don't let price alone put you off.

HoundMusic

     Interesting. Do you breed yourself? I can tell a pet quality pup right off the bat, around 6 weeks - sometimes sooner if it's apparent the pup has an obviously snippy muzzle or poor tail carriage/set. Those defects tend to show up quite early on & stand out like a sore thumb. Temperament is also a definer of pet quality - more submissive pups are apparent @ 4-5 weeks and they are not suitable for a breeding program. There are some pups, while still in the whelping box, who stand out with exceptional round bone, nice full muzzles & then go on to have superior structure/temperament, nose orientation, intelligence. I'll mark these as potential show, field or breeding quality (and lol, yes, they are out of sire/dam who are not show CHs - they're not even show bred). And you can believe that is no con. I do not often have homes lined up for my pups, the most I have is interest, because I don't even take deposits before a litter is on the ground. Interested parties don't always choose to purchase a pup from you! Waiting list is not an indicator of a good breeder, and ther eis nothing, I mean absolutely nothing wrong with advertising pups as pet/show quality ...

 

I have not bred a litter yet, but I am considering breeding Selli in a year or so after she completes her MX and MXJ.  I have many friends who breed for performance, show and field.  From what I have observed, it is easy to tell if a puppy is pet quality, but determining if a puppy is really show quality is something that occurs after the puppy has grown up.  I know Shelties who look wonderful as puppies but grow too big (quite frequent) or whose ears don't tip properly.  I know a lab puppy who had great potential but wound up with a bad gait.  And boy, all the Goldens who are bred by great breeders out of Ch stock who are show picks and co-owned by the breeder but for one reason or another (like lack of coat, lack of size or bone, missing teeth) turn out to not be show quality.

It may be different in Beagles, but in Goldens, it is remotely possible but highly improbable, that a dog that is not out of show lines will do well in dog shows which is what "show quality" refers to.  I have seen many breeder or general "buy a puppy" listing websites where individual golden puppies are advertised as "show quality."  No information on the puppy's pedigree is given, or if it is, the pedigree only shows titled dogs two or three generations back.  It is hard, if not impossible for me to believe that these puppies have any chance in the breed ring.  And yes, I believe these ads are a scam.  If you have a person who has no experience with show dogs, but sees a "breeder" call a puppy "show quality" they are likely to believe that claim and they have no knowledge to evaluate the claim or the puppy.  The breeder can call any puppy they want to "show quality," it doesn't mean the puppy is, and if the "breeder" is unscrupulous, they may claim a puppy is "show quality" to up the demand for their puppies. 

GoldenAC

but determining if a puppy is really show quality is something that occurs after the puppy has grown up.  I know Shelties who look wonderful as puppies but grow too big (quite frequent) or whose ears don't tip properly.  I know a lab puppy who had great potential but wound up with a bad gait.  And boy, all the Goldens who are bred by great breeders out of Ch stock who are show picks and co-owned by the breeder but for one reason or another (like lack of coat, lack of size or bone, missing teeth) turn out to not be show quality.

     That happens all the time in every breed. But most potential show quality pups are sold around 10-12 weeks, and are sold with the intentions of being shown. Bites go off, dogs go oversized, puppy uglies happen, etc. Still, the pups are sorted by the breeder as potential show/pet quality & are advertised as being salable to a show home only or pet home only. I simply don't see how you can say stay away from someone who is claiming certain pups are likely to be show quality - b/c altho the unforseen stuff does happen, many/most times the pup will turn out to be showable. It still needs to be advertised to a show home, if it's showing great potential. I don't know any breeders who will keep every single show prospect in the litter, unless they are truly exceptional.

 

GoldenAC

It may be different in Beagles, but in Goldens, it is remotely possible but highly improbable, that a dog that is not out of show lines will do well in dog shows which is what "show quality" refers to.  I have seen many breeder or general "buy a puppy" listing websites where individual golden puppies are advertised as "show quality."  No information on the puppy's pedigree is given, or if it is, the pedigree only shows titled dogs two or three generations back.  It is hard, if not impossible for me to believe that these puppies have any chance in the breed ring.  And yes, I believe these ads are a scam.

     These pups were out of a field bred sire/dam. The bitch often throws pups with superior conformation, regardless who she's bred to. So I advertised them as being potential show quality and one has taken some wins at UKC bench shows, btw. The other is a much loved pet. It wasn't a scam or a con. The pups were potential show quality, and they stuck out from the rest at a very, very young age. Wish I could get the adult pics on my puter to show how gorgeous they eventually turned out ... Neither lost quality.
     I've also had instances where I was looking at other breeders for a show quality pup, and by 8 weeks, they pretty much had a clear understanding of which ones would likely be show quality, and advertised the pups as such.
    Show quality refers to a dog that has few conformation faults and would do well in the show ring. It's representative of CAREFUL breeding.

 

 

 I am late getting back to you, but I think you used the important term "potential" show quality, produced by "careful" breeding.  I have seen many litter listings in breed or performance magazines or on breed lists that where the breeder announces the puppies have show or performance potential, but these sources are aimed at people who are already involved in these venues and understand what "show potential" or "performance potential" means. 

But for someone who is not in the dog fancy, who is just beginning to do research on a breed or a puppy and is looking on the internet or at a local paper and see a puppy advertised as "show quality," they may be misled.

GoldenAC

do research on a breed or a puppy and is looking on the internet or at a local paper and see a puppy advertised as "show quality," they may be misled

Part of research is asking many, many questions and analyzing the answers you receive. I think that misled, is something that requires effort on both sides...not just the one.